Romans 13:1-7. You've asked a valid question from v2 & there are two ways of understanding it: is disobedience to the laws of civil govt bring on God's damnation or the condemnation by the dispensers of those laws? In context of the chapter, I believe that this applies to the latter, that of judgement by the magistrate. The Greek word here is 'krima', which applies to 'a judgement, a verdict, a condemnation'. So for whatever reason Paul is thinking of, the one who disobeys the laws, will face the judge (who sits under the authority of God for the good of society). So, one is not damned by God in this regard, but will be condemned by civil law, & yet God would expect us to be obedient to such laws, unless they are in opposition to His Own ( Acts 5:28,29), to His Laws we are subject first.
Philippians 2:12,13. The apostle writing to the Church, commends them for obeying the Lord, not only when he was with them, but also when he wasn't there; this shows that they were genuine in their faith & not 'putting on appearances' for Paul's sake. So this wonderful salvation that they possessed can never be allowed to become mediocre & lukewarm, therefore Paul encourages them to 'work it out', i.e. what they possessed should be continually worked out (in one's personal walk & in relation to others), and done so 'in fear & trembling'. Why fear? I see it as the outworking of our Salvation which is a very serious business, not given to flippancy & a lackadaisical view, but geared to pleasing the Lord in all things & ever ready to engage in battle with the tempter & seducer. True, we have 'not been given a spirit of fear', of what man or spirit can do to us, even because of overwhelming circumstances we might face, but of Holy Ghost Power, of Divine Love, & of a sound healthy regenerated mind. I trust you can see the difference in 'Fear' in these instances.
Then to your question, "If Jesus was a co-equal God in the three-person God, how could He be given anything He would already have it?" If we don't believe that Jesus came out from God's Person, then your question is valid. But if He did, then to become Man, taking on 'sinful flesh', He would have had to lay aside God's Glory & other Divine Attributes ( Philippians 2:5-8), so that He could be fully Man, to identify completely with those He would save & be their sin-bearer - for God in His Being cannot suffer & die as appointed unto men.
Thus when we read 1 John 4:2,3; we know that John is not speaking of an historical Jesus, for all knew of (or heard of) this One named Jesus of Nazareth Who lived & walked on Earth doing great things. But those who denied that this Christ from God had been brought down to Earth to be made flesh, were deemed by the apostle as not speaking by God's Spirit (& this is that Docetic heresy that was pervading the Church: that Divinity & Flesh cannot unite, so the incarnation is incredible). So dear brother, I can see your interpretation of such verses & was exercised by them to understand them the way you do, but for me to read them in that manner would cause me to violate my comprehension abilities & sensibilities.
Therefore, I think it best we leave off here, as much as I would like to continue, for I see no useful progress to be made when we read the Word so differently. Thank you again for your time & persisting in this - I do appreciate this very much. Every blessing.
Hebrews 2:7 Jesus was fully human and was tempted just as we are Hebrews 4:15 God cannot be tempted, James 1:13. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28Philippians 2:9 again my understanding is all was in and through Jesus in the plan and forethought in the mind of God, logos.
1 Peter 1:19-20 Yes in God's plan my understanding the Greek is not by whom but through whom the Greek word dia, same as in John 1:3 it is through Him not by Him. In Jesus and through Jesus being the first in God's plan came everything like you said "God's Plan & Purpose for redemption" the new creation that was in God's plan.
Jesus was the beginning in God's plan and was begotten in Mary's womb. Like today where you and I are to God it is the same as if we were there with Him on the new earth and His plan has been completed. He is the beginning and the end, and it started with Jesus His Son before any creation and in and through Jesus came all and in the fulness of time He was brought forth into the world.
As in John 1 God's word was manifested in the flesh of His Son Jesus. When Jesus was anointed and became the Messiah/Christ by the Holy Spirit, God was in Jesus and the words Jesus spoke were God's words. The light that shined through Jesus was God, the works were done by the Spirit of God in Jesus, all was done for the glory of God.
I know you may not agree but that is my understanding and if you have any other questions, I will reply to the best of my ability, I own you that. Can I answer all, no I cannot, there are many verses that I am still in search of the truth of.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Philippians 2:9: yes, as a Son, Jesus is now subject to His Father & is exalted above all. Yet, the question remains unanswered, 'Who was Jesus prior to His Coming?' He wasn't called Jesus (though some believe in Christophany-type appearances in the OT), but the Scriptures, as I gave earlier, point to Him coming forth from within God.
1 Peter 1:19-21: "If Jesus pre-existed how could he be foreordained?" Jesus was foreordained before His coming to Earth - that was God's Plan & Purpose for redemption. But this verse tells us that Jesus was in God's Plan, but it doesn't speak of where Jesus came from at the beginning; this One Who from God, had framed the worlds ( Hebrews 1:2). I would think it nonsense if any would believe that Jesus, after His appearing, then ascended to the Father, & then made the worlds.
Rather than listing the Scriptures that show Jesus in the Flesh & returning to His Father triumphant (which we all agree to), we need to focus on whether the Scriptures show that He had a beginning before His earthly appearance - and these I gave which have not been addressed. Anyway, we'll leave it for now, as per your wish brother, but if any other 'non-trinitarian' wishes to continue this & specifically to exegete the Scriptures I gave earlier, then I will continue with it, as it is a most important doctrine to understand. Blessings.
I thank you for discussing this and I consider you as a brother in Christ. I do not feel I have represented Scripture in any kind of mystical or spiritual way. I am not trying to convince you, but to explain my understanding. I believe Jesus was a man same as the first Adam without sin, 1 Cor. 15:471 Timothy 2:5 Jesus is the only begotten Son of God miraculously conceived, born of the virgin Mary, Matthew 1:20Acts 17:31Rev. 12:5
Take Hebrews 1: 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father? How could God say I will be to him a Father and he shall be to me a Son if Jesus eternally existed with the Father.
Hebrews 2:7 from Psalms 8:5-6 God the Father made and set Jesus His only begotten Son over all His works of His hands this tells me the Father is the creator. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28Philippians 2:9. To me that is simply saying God the Father is superior and they are not coequal, God the Father highly exalted Jesus His Son.
Christ means He is the Anointed One nothing is above God so God cannot be anointed or anoint Himself, God is the one who anoints, as Jesus was anointed with the full measure of the Holy Spirit/Ghost when He was baptized by John the Baptist. We also see in 1 Corinthians 11:3 This to me shows they are not equal, and God the Father is the head over all.
1 Peter 1:19-21 If Jesus preexisted how could he be foreordained? Eph. 1:10
Chris, I may could say more, maybe we can pick this back up again, but I hope you have some idea of my understanding, this is not to end this but just to pause I hope that is ok.
Jesus to me is Devine He is the Devine only begotten Son of God. He has been placed over all that is in heaven and earth and every knee will bow to Him. You do not think He had a beginning; I believe His beginning was in God's plan before any creation and was brought forth in the fulness of time.
"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:" Philippians 2:9 KJV
"above every name". Even above Jehovah?
"That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth." Psalms 83:18 KJV
Jehovah's name was the highest name before.
I'm posting this for input not as a trivia question.
It seems to say that the name of Jesus after His sacrifice was placed above the name of Jehovah, do you believe this and if so should this reality affect our Christian walk?
Hence, Scriptures such as have referred to here & in other discussions: Mark 2:5-7; John 1:1-14; John 20:27,28; Philippians 2:5-8; Colossians 1:15-17; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; & others, are relevant in our discussions. I don't expect that we deal with all of these in one hit (maybe just the John 1 only), but in my understanding, these portions speak of Jesus prior to His coming to Earth - and these are the verses that we understand differently. The verses that speak of Jesus after His coming to Earth can only be correctly understood if we know Who He was before His coming.
You've shared John 1:1 just here, in reference to "what beginning" is spoken about. You understood it as "it was the word of God in Jesus", and also in other comments, that this 'beginning' is the beginning of Jesus' Ministry. So what I understand from you, is that when Jesus began His Ministry, God's Word came to Him/into Him, thus He brought that Word given to Him to the people.
The subject in John 1:1-18 is "the Word". Leaving aside for a moment 'Jesus receiving God's Word in the beginning of His Ministry', we read in John 1 that "the Word" was in "the beginning, with God & was God". So this Word is God (i.e. God cannot be Who He is without His Word actively in Him - also comparable to the Holy Spirit Who is God & a characteristic of His Existence, for out of God issues forth both His Word & His Spirit. All things were made by God through His Word (v 3), bringing Light & Life (v 4). Then John the Baptist says that he wasn't that Light but was to be a witness to it (vv 6-8); that Light which would come upon all men, made the world, but His own people rejected Him (vv 9-11). Onto Page 3.
Again, thanks Ronald for your comments here. Re: whether I consider you "a Gnostic", in relation to what you believe, there is no way to sugar-coat what clearly appears to be your belief. Even as someone here, a little while ago, labeled me a 'Pharisee', referring to the fact that I tenaciously stuck to God's literal Word & wouldn't bend to his spiritualizing the Scriptures. Of course, I took that label on the chin, & considered whether I was indeed in error or not, & moved on continuing to refute such belief & standing on God's Word as given & intended to be understood. Likewise, my hope is that, in your firm belief, you will not allow a label, correctly or incorrectly applied, to affect you, rather that these discussions are occurring now to air our beliefs & why we believe them (according to the Scriptures). You are a dear gracious brother in Christ, & I know that no two Christians will align perfectly in every teaching (unless belonging to a cult subject to indoctrination), but hopefully can make some headway in our understanding of the Word. Even Giannis has shared his knowledge of Greek & how the Greek mind understands what is given, so here again we can choose to accept or reject his offerings.
In regard to the many good Scriptures you gave on Jesus' words to the people, or even apostolic distinction between the Father & the Son, I cannot disagree, as to me these verses show the Son's position on Earth with the Father, His subjection, His glorifying of Him, & even His receiving His Word to give to the people as factual. These verses to me speak of His Humanity, of which Philippians 2:6-8 gives us the reason for His subservience to the Father & the laying aside of certain 'traits' to become a Man. So the Scriptures you shared are agreed with, but the question still before us is, 'was Jesus, prior to His Coming to Earth as a babe, only a thought & a plan in the Mind of God, or did He actually exist in a Form with/in God?' To Page 2.
True, we may not conclusively know the Form He took in Heaven, whether as the Word within God's Person (just as the Spirit in God was sent out), or as another Form outside of God yet closely connected to Him. The issue here is, whether Jesus existed (in some Form) prior to His appearing on Earth. If not, what do we do with such verses as given here? Can we really reinterpret them in any other way? Is that even possible? And we could add Micah 5:2 (a coming Ruler not going forth from Bethlehem, but from eternity), John 3:13 (Who was in Heaven, coming down from Heaven), John 6:38 (come from Heaven), John 8:56-58 (Jesus existed even before Abraham), Philippians 2:5-11 (His equality with God, but laid it aside to come & serve man), & Hebrews 1:1-3 (through Jesus God made the worlds).
I've understood your comments on Jesus' Life & Death as per His earthly sojourn. But unless we can understand Who this Jesus really is (i.e. whether a Creation of God to fulfil His Plans on Earth, or God Himself, He Who was from the beginning), then the substance of this Mystery can never be resolved. That is why textual examination is so important, especially when we can see other Scriptures that confirm our understanding. I apologize for not referring to your other comments (e.g. the soul/spirit, firstborn, etc), but wanted to keep this short & focus on Jesus before His appearance on Earth. GBU.
Your second question: "If Jesus was preexisting, an immortal being, God the son. How can an immortal being die?" There are varying beliefs about Jesus' position in Heaven prior to His incarnation. I rather simply accept John 1:1-18, John 14:10,11, John 16:27,28, 1 John 5:7, that Jesus came forth from God. Did He come out as a Divine Being in the presence of God, to be made a human for the sake of death, or did God take His Own Word & give Him flesh for this very purpose? We don't have a problem of God sending out His Spirit & the Spirit's indwelling in every believer (can He even be dissected?), but to send His Word out, clothe Him in a body, unnerves many.
"How can an immortal being die? How can God be tempted...How can God die?" God is Spirit - He is Immortal - He can never die. No one, having a spirit from God, can die - the body will perish, but who can destroy the spirit which cannot be touched by age or man's devices? But if the immortal is given a body, as Jesus received, or even as we also have to house our spirits, then the body will die but the spirit lives on. Can God take on flesh? A mystery no human can fully fathom, but truly "a body hast thou prepared me" ( Hebrews 10:5-7, taken from Psalm 40:6-8). So Jesus could be tempted & could die whilst in the body, and so in His complete identification with sinful men in need of salvation, Philippians 2:6-8 reminds us:
"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." "thought it not robbery" = Jesus didn't grasp onto/retain His equality with God, but 'emptied Himself' ('ekenosen'), laying aside His Glory, to become a Man, obedient to death that which was the Father's Plan.
Good to hear from you, very good question. First, the Roman Church elevated Mary to the queen of heaven the same title as Tammuz's mother we see Israel worshiping. They say she ascended to heaven and much more. If we look at Acts we see Paul said that David is still in his tomb and has not ascended to heaven, Acts 2:29 and Acts 2:34. Many believe after Jesus was resurrected saints were also resurrected and are in heaven and many pray to them. My understanding is no one has been resurrected all are in the grave asleep in death.
When God through His Spirit the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead He placed Jesus above all that is in heaven, on earth, and under the earth, Philippians 2:9-11. God placed Jesus on His right hand on the throne of God, therefore giving Jesus the power of the throne.
John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Jesus also said John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
God the Father and Jesus will dwell in us by the Spirit, not in temples made by hands like Jesus said in John 4:21-23 and we see in 1 Corinthians 3:16. We see in 1 John 4:12-16 it is by the Spirit that Jesus who is sitting on the right side of God on the throne of God as the only mediator between us and God has been given the power of the throne until all enemies are under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:27-28.
My humble understanding it is by the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit that Jesus can see and hear all. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and His God is our God the Father as Jesus said to Mary John 20:17.
And I will put my spirit within you, "AND CAUSE" you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Ezekiel 36:27.
The apostle Paul says that "for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus" ( Ephesians 2:10). The word "workmanship" means "that which is made, a work of art." It refers to a "masterpiece." What Paul's saying is that all God's children are His masterpieces.
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Dead Works.
In the Bible the phrase "dead works" is found in the book of Hebrews.
Hebrews 6:1-3.
"Repentance from dead works".
Repentance means to change the way we think. We need to change the way we think about dead works.
From the outside looking in we can't tell the difference between dead works and good works. They can look very much the same outwardly. They can be the same works, but they have different motives.
Praying can be a dead or good work.
Attending church can be a dead or good work.
Reading the Bible can be a dead or good work.
Telling others about Jesus can be a dead or good work.
That's why Jesus said what he said in Matthew 7:22-23.
Prophesying, casting out demons, performing miracles in the name of Jesus are all outwardly good things. But Jesus will reject "many" who do those things. Why? Because their hearts are wrong. These people have the wrong motivations for the things they do.
Dead works are any attempt to find favor, earn acceptance or be made righteous before God by one's own effort, ability or willpower.
Religion puts the emphasis on doing right. In contrast, Jesus and the apostles put the emphasis on believing right, because when we believe right we will naturally do right as a consequence.
If we can't tell outwardly, then how do we know what a good work is?
When considering the return of Christ from our perspective we look forward to the conquering King at His second coming (which in reality is at least His third appearance since He ascended from the grave as a sort of part b to His first appearing in the form of the Son of Man; and the Second Coming is split into the Rapture when He appears in the air and when He physically returns at Armaggedon being a sort of "fourth" coming).
Of course this term doesn't appear in scripture; nor does the Word "trinity". Rapture is what Harpazo means after translation to the term "rapturo" so it isn't in our English texts. In a broader context; Christ appeared in the Old Testament many times (known as a Christophene if it is spelled right). It would seem that the Preincarnate Christ would be there all times; in fact when the Lord communed with man; as no man can see God and live ( Exodus 33:20). The same could be said for Christ in all His glory; John fell at His feet as though dead in his encounter in Revelation ( Rev. 1:17-18).
It is truly profound to consider how Christ was reduced to the microscopic size of a human fetus; just as much as a virgin birth. Surely in that state the angels were protecting him; being part of the Godhead wasn't part of His earthly ministry ( Philippians 2:7) as He had to live as a substitute for us; but without sin as well as dying as our atonement as the perfect sacrifice. The fact that Christ died for His enemies is remarkable. How He took on our sins is incomprehensible as well; but this was God's plan from before the foundation of the earth.
May us all remember the verse Matthew 21:44 in regard to falling on Christ. When He returns He will fall on His enemies and crush all the empires of this world as foretold in Daniel 2:45. Let us fall down in worship and adoration today.
Christ being a member of the Godhead never sinned. We see that He was tempted in all ways as we are as Hebrews 4:15 states.
In His own strength Christ certainly always had the right to do anything as well as the capability; but as we know God cannot lie ( Heb. 6:18 and other related scriptures). Thus; Satan truly was the only being that had the authority to give the right of rulership over the earth as a temptation; and Christ was the only recipient other than Antichrist who will receive this offer. The man of sin will accept it; and the world will accept THE LIE ( 2 Thess. 2:11-12). It was for our sake that Christ humbled Himself; even to death on a cross emptying Himself of all self promotion of His own glory for the sake of the Father's exaltation later. This encompasses a number of scriptures (see Philippians 2:7; Isaiah 53).
Thus; we see that the relationship among the Godhead brings humility followed by exaltation. We also should follow that guideline; knowing that no servant is greater than His master; we are also to suffer while in this brief earthly existence. ( John 13:16). How much of our own troubles are caused by our own sins varies; it is something we should overcome if we are truly to embrace His sufferings.
When we consider sinless perfection on a surface level we think of avoiding commission of acctions against God as well as avoiding omission of things we ought to do which is often neglected at the expense of the first issue. We can think of someone who never makes mistakes; never says a word that is unfitting; and other like characteristics. When examining in depth this subject we see how eternal spiritual laws and principles were always first and foremost; undergirding Christ's miracles. Salvation was shown to be more crucial than just healing (see Matthew 9:6); as the paralytic received healing along with forgiveness. Salvation is complete at the Resurrection of the just; inheriting new bodies
Philippians 2:12,13: is Paul reminding them, 'you have God's Salvation, now work it out (i.e. don't be slack or negligent in living the new life that Christ has purchased for you), & do so in fear & trembling - living the Christian life is a serious, disciplined matter, under the ministry of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
"Our Faith, Belief, Repentance are WORKS and a RESULT and EVIDENCE of, not REQUIREMENTS for, Salvation." There certainly must be an on-going evidence of Faith, Belief & Repentance in a believer's life, but none of the passages suggest that they cannot be requirements towards Salvation.
Part 5: Ezekiel 36:24-33. Indeed, this passage is all of God's Action: that Israel would be released primarily from Assyrian/Babylonian captivity & then ultimately "from all countries". But what happened? Have they yet received "a new heart & a new spirittaking away the stony heart of flesh? Their Messiah came, gave His Life for them & they yet remain obstinate & stony in heart. I believe this will yet happen ( Romans 11:25-27), when Israel will be saved. How will they be saved? These verses don't divulge this information, except God's Act to take away their sins.
And so we go back to what Jesus had commanded & to which the apostles obeyed, Mark 1:14,15 "Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: REPENT ye, and BELIEVE the gospel."
Acts 3:19, "REPENT ye therefore, and BE CONVERTED, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord" Israel in the future, will still need to believe & accept that Jesus was indeed their Messiah; maybe all Works in your understanding, but vital if they are to receive "a new heart & a new spirit".
"But I also note your belief that 'repentance & belief' are considered as 'Works done towards salvation', therefore it can have no place before salvation."
So allow me to clarify.
The Repentance and Belief of someone whom God has saved or plans to save, i.e. one of God's Elect, does NOT contribute in any way whatsoever TOWARDS their salvation. These are good works that we do because God has saved us or is in the process of drawing us to salvation. They will be evidenced in the life of the True Believer and are the RESULT of God working within us to will and to do of His good pleasure. Philippians 2:13
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the FAITH OF CHRIST, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Our faith, our repentance are WORKS OF THE LAW; we are commanded to believe, to have faith, to repent. But these works do not contribute to our salvation in any way.
It is Christ's faith that saves us. That is, Christ's faithfulness in paying for the sins of His Elect and then applying that salvation to their life and giving them an enduring faith in Him and a repentant heart; all of which is part and parcel of salvation itself.
John 10:34- seems to be a popular verse here. People want to believe they are a god, is that what's happening here? That would be a gross misinterpretation. You know this is a quote with a question mark at the end, right? Let's be honest about it. Here's the commentary for that:
Christ's argument is: If your law calls judges gods, why should I be held guilty of blasphemy for saying that I am the Son of God?
As per the other argument trying to discredit the word "one" sounds like your argument is that one doesn't really mean one, because Jesus used it to describe believers being one. I don't see how being one in unity as Christ's body somehow means that all the Bible verses about Jesus being God and divine suddenly don't apply? The verse about the Father and Son being one is only one of MANY verses competing the picture. The Bible already says Jesus the Word is God so how can you disregard that?
God: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 KJV
You: Word was "NOT" God?
"Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also." John 8:19 KJV
Have you thought about how your belief reconciles with verses like this above?
Isaiah 7:14 -
Yes, Jesus is called Immanuel which means "God with us". People called Jesus "God". He's King of King and Lord of Lords. Alpha and Omega, first and last. Do you believe Jesus is Lord? I believe that is a requirement for even being a Christian. A Christ follower should know who Christ is.
1 John 5:7-8
John 10:30
John 8:19
Genesis 1:26
Genesis 11:6-7 (plural "us" which includes Jesus, as per John 1:1)
by angelic hosts, saints, and believers along with the Father, we have to conclude that God is a unity of Persons as One Being or else God would have lied about being the only God and there is no others beside Him. Yet, just as Isaiah 45:23 says that every knee shall bow and every tongue swear" and in Philippians 2:10-11 says that every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus is LORD to the glory of God."
Isaiah 45:25" In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified.." so in Jesus, the promised Seed of Abraham, are all the seed of Abraham justified. Gal. 3:8;14 that is , those who believe in Jesus, whether Jew or Gentile.
Adam, thank you again for holding firm on this doctrine. We need to continue to speak forth what the Scriptures say concerning Who Jesus truly is, by the words He spoke, the inspired words of the apostles, and the works of Jesus that only God could do (forgive sins, heal the sick, give sight to the blind, control the weather, cast out demons, and be the only perfect sacrifice to atone for our sins.
I understand this subject is hard to discuss in a short post, to cover all the many Scriptures, some seem the point one way and others the other way.
Do you think Jesus is only a created human being? Of course not, He is the Son of God, the Messiah, the anointed one, Jesus is our Lord, our savior whom God sent that shed His blood for the remission of our sins. Do I believe Jesus had a beginning the answer is yes.
Do you think that the Son of God did not exist before Jesus was conceived? If you think that the Son of God existed before the conception of Jesus, do you believe He was created?
Hard to answer, Scripture tells us Jesus was the beginning of the creation of God, Rev. 3:4. Jesus could not be a timeless eternal Son and be the beginning of the creation of God, God has no beginning. 1 Peter 1:18-20 Jesus was "foreordained before the foundation of the world but was manifest in these last times for you". If created means to bring into existence the answer would have to be yes.
Do you worship Jesus? Jesus is the mediator between God and us He is the only way to the Father and is worthy of worship and honor Him, Philippians 2:10.
Do you believe that Jesus is divine? If divine means Jesus is God my answer is no. Jesus is the Son of God our Savior, Messiah, King, in being those He is divine.
And wishes to you too Mark & your family at this time of Thanksgiving. You've shared a few Scriptures, which I will address.
Philippians 2:12,13. The apostle was concerned for the Church's behavior: vv 2-4 (disagreements, unloving, discord, striving & not esteeming). And of course, he gives the supreme example of the Mind of Christ in his Coming in the form of a Servant. So Paul goes on to write (v12), 'therefore as you have obeyed me in the past, not just when I'm around but now when I'm not with you, work out (put into practise/into operation) what your salvation has brought you, and do so in trembling & fear (in all diligence & seriousness)': my paraphrasing. "work out your own salvation" is the big question here. If it were to 'find your own way to God', or 'now that you are saved, make all effort to remain saved', then I don't believe that was Paul's teaching. As one Bible teacher often preached, "you have been given the gift of Salvation, now work it out in your life", i.e. 'be constantly in step with the Spirit, being humble before God, scrutinizing your life, keeping short accounts with Him; you can't add anymore to your salvation, or else it's no more of Grace but of works, so be diligent to not be slack but mindful of God's great Grace & your position in Christ'.
"His Faith". I did mean, God's Faith given to man to believe & to be exercised with. Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 12:3, are good examples - the Gift of God given to us is 'Grace AND Faith', for man's faith is incapable of apprehending the fullness of Christ's Sacrifice at the Cross for him & being exercised to please God.
1 Corinthians 9:27. A 'castaway' what Paul was referring to, was that he would be disqualified from this high calling if he was hypocritical by preaching salvation through Jesus & the power of that Risen Life, & yet be undisciplined in dealing with the appeals of his flesh. In this case, he would have failed - and maybe removed from ministry, even from earthly life itself. GBU
2 Peter 1:20 No PROPHECY of the scripture is (in and of itself it's) OWN private interpretation.
2 Corinthians 13:1 ...in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established .....
Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, ye shall surely not DIE:
Genesis 3:5 FOR GOD DOTH KNOW that in the day you thereof, then your EYES SHALL BE OPENED, and ye shall be as gods, KNOWING GOOD and EVIL.
This is ALL PROPHECY.
Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God SAID, Behold, the man HAS BECOME AS ONE OF US, to KNOW good and evil.....
The FRUIT was KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, the KNOWLEDGE of gods.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not WRITTEN in your LAW, ye are gods
John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the WORD the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken.
Psalms 82:6
Deuteronomy 10:17 your God is a God of gods, and Lord of Lords ....
Psalms 136:6 Give thanks unto the God of gods, for his mercy endureth for ever.
Now, Eve was a prophecy of the coming bride of Christ by HIS RESURRECTION, and what happened she was resurrected with her husband to never DIE.
The gift of God is eternal life.
God can even use Satan to speak prophecy, what did Satan say, Ye shall never DIE.
Luke 20:36 Neither can THEY DIE ANYMORE, Adam (Christ) took of the fruit and did eat with his wife and Christ and his wife (creation) DIED, and the spirit of the Father RAISED them as ONE FLESH), for they are equal unto the angels, and are the children of God, being the CHILDREN of the RESURRECTION.
Philippians 2:5 Let this MIND BE IN YOU, which also was in Christ Jesus:
Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, though it not robbery to be equal with God.
Jesus was temporarily "made lower than the angels" Hebrews 2:9.
which refers to Jesus' status. The second Person of the Trinity took on human flesh.
Jesus was fully human and "made lower than the angels." However, Jesus is fully divine, too.
I've heard it put like this, By taking on human nature, Jesus did not relinquish His divine nature-God cannot stop being God.
Philippians 2:6-8. reads as follows.
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Jesus voluntarily relinquished this while on earth. He put himself under the will of the Father, "that is his role".
Therefore, the fact that the Son took on a human nature and made Himself subservient to the Father in no way denies the deity of the Son, nor does it diminish His essential equality with the Father. The "greatness" spoken of in this verse, then, relates to role, not to essence.
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. ( Ephesians 2:5-7).
This verse shows how God is rich in mercy; and goes beyond just a one time experience and puts his people on display for the Millennium and throughout eternity all because of what Christ accomplished on our behalf on the cross. In the present He is working out our salvation through fear and trembling (stating that we are to work it out but implying of course that it is His strength and surrender to the Spirit that accomplishes this: Philippians 2:12-13). This is known as "sanctification" followed by glorification after death or at the time of the Rapture/Resurrection of the saints.
I brought out before in the last post and many times in other posts that God chastises all those He loves. This isn't a popular concept especially among the "prosperity gospel" crowd. Indeed the KJV says we are bastards if we aren't being disciplined in this way ( Heb. 12:8). A human child through the love of the parents is disciplined as the famous "spare the rod and spoil the child" and many like sentiments in scripture indicate ( Prov. 13:24). Ephesians 4:22 says to put off the old man; and Galatians states that we are crucified with Christ (chapter 2; verse 20).
God has also expressed His love in honoring His covenants; both with national Israel and the new covenant with His church.
This would be my response to comments on difficulty conceiving of the value of what happened in the Old Testament. Indeed all scripture is good for instruction and all other tenets as stated in 2 Tim. 3:16. There is much to learn from mistakes of others as well as worthy acts of saints of all ages in scripture.
Holy Spirt states 1John 2:1 children do not sin, & if you do. Indicating their state
Then in 1John 2:12-14 Holy Spirit distinguishes the maturity of the believers, as children who sins are forgiven for His name sake, the young men who have overcome the wicked one & the fathers that have known Him from the beginning, each according to the measure of the Spirit they received in their growth in Christ.
1Pet 5:1 Peter here makes a distinction, in exhorting the elders that are among them
1John 2:6
Your wrong it does imply this, as plenty of Scriptures confirms this.
Rom 8:29, conformed to the image of His Son,
1John 3:3 pure as He is pure
Gal 2:20 not I but Christ lives in me, only the pure in heart see & experience this on the spiritual level Paul is speaking from here.
we think, talk & walk as He did. 1Cor 2:16 we have the mind of Christ. Philippians 2:5
2Pet 1:3 freely has given us all things,
Luke 10:19 He's not talking about physically hurt here, as the Scriptures give witness too.
Luke 12:5 & that fear is to depart from evil, sin along can hurt us.
Col 3:10Ephesians 4:23,24 the renewing of our minds in the knowledge after the image of Him that created him,
"the new man", is the work of Sanctification of the Spirit, bringing us into ever increasing measures of growth to maturity in Christ, the divine nature, fruits of the Spirit & ultimately being born again of the Incorruptible Seed,
your comparisons paragraph
you end with "how are you going to walk differently? You answered your own question
quoting you "I DON'T always in the human perfectly follow" one's not abiding in the Vine & according to this Scriptural statement, one has transgress against the Light, which the Spirit declares in the contest of these Scriptures is that one is still a child, for the young men have overcome the wicked one & the fathers have likewise.
Last par; Yes, this is the heart of the Father in sending His Son, Christ being the first born among many brethern
John 15:2: "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."
I heard so many people saying that salvation cannot be lost. I think there is a necessity to define what "lost" means. Does it mean losing the communion with the Lord on this earth? Or does it mean going to hell after death? In my argument, I have chosen the latter definition, losing salvation = going to hell after death. If one finishes up not making it to heaven, it means the person has lost his salvation because the goal of salvation is to live where Jesus is ( John 14:3)
1. Who are the branches Jesus spoke about? The believers, here Jesus was not talking about non-believers (because they are not "branches").
2. Two types of branches: Branches that abide in Jesus, and branches that do not abide in Him, meaning believers who abide in Jesus, and believers who do not. Those who abide bear good fruit, but those who do not abide bear no fruit.
3. Note that there is a difference between accepting Jesus and abiding in Him. Some people accept Jesus but do not ABIDE in Him, meaning that they do not obey and completely surrender to Him in their journey.
4. Those people (who believed at first, but did not abide in Him later) are the branches that do not abide in Jesus, and therefore, they will be cut off.
Conclusion: It is a big mistake to believe that one cannot lose salvation once saved. Philippians 2:12-13 said, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you..." If salvation is "granted" once, why did the Apostle Paul say we should work with "fear" and "trembling"?
I Corinthians 9:27: "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." Look at the last word of the verse. "CASTAWAY", meaning losing salvation.
1 Cor 10:24, "Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth." The word wealth is in italics, it is not written in the text. My Bible has the word "interest" instead. It could also be "profit".
1 Cor 10:33, "Even as I(Paul) please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
Philippians 2:19-21, "19But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timotheus shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state. 20For I have no man likeminded, who will naturally care for your state. 21For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's."
Lets pay attention to verse 21. Even at that time people were interested in their affairs, with some exceptions like Paul and Timothy. How difficult is for one to devote himself to the needs of others. But Jesus did exactly that.
I like you was sincere, etc, but I was sincerely wrong, oh how I struggled, the veil always separated me from my Beloved, there was no pure unity of the faith & oneness that Christ prayed for, my conscience bearing witness against me, no matter how I cried, repented, fasted, prayed or studies the letter, & walk accordingly, yet, the veil was still hung between us & why? 2Cor 3:6 I remember it quiet well, a yoyo of an experience.
1 Cor 15:34,45 true knowledge is given by the true Grace of God who appears bringing salvation to all mankind.
Ronald, have you ever had an unction that cross your own will, telling you not to do or say something & show you what to do or to say? & if not heeded to, condemn you for it? Or maybe you were in a tryst state, & say or did something & later Holy Spirit/ Grace convicted you of wrong? This is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, Grace/Light/Anointing we have received & appears within us, & if minded & exercised is the daily Cross & is not a lie, abide in Him & in the steadfast confidence continual exercising of it, will eventually set us free from the law of sin & death. Received by Luke 10:42Psalms 130:5"the word of His Grace, who words are Spirit & Life" Psalms 145:12-18Psalms 123:2Psalms 62:5 meaning silencing all thoughts & imaginations & in stillness of soul, wait. Psalms 46:10 and He will appear Hebrews 9:28 . Believing that it is He appearing to you is faith, hearing the Word of God in the heart, that Paul preached & this faith purifies the heart & gives victory over the world.
2Cor 3:16-18 this stillness & waiting upon the Lord is turning to Him, who is Spirit, whom takes the veil away & gives us knowledge of Himself, 2Cor 4:6,7 setting us free from the bondage of sin, we know the Truth & the Truth set us free & transforms us into His Image. Light begets light, in whom there is no darkness at all.
causing you Philippians 2:13Hebrews 13:21 "obviously this is not sinning".
What does it mean to believe? What is the evidence that we believe? As Paul said, it is like running a race, when we start this race, we believe we are going to finish, and with God's Spirit we have all the determination and motivation we are not only going to finish this race we are going to win this race.
We are saved! We are being saved! We shall be saved! When we start, are all our sins forgiven, our past, present, and our future sins the moment we accept Jesus Christ as our Savior and are baptized? Is our salvation guaranteed and we cannot lose it or fall out of grace regardless?
We are saved. Eph. 2:5 When we accept the gospel and are baptized our sins are blotted out, Isaiah 44:22Acts 3:19 and we become a child/son/daughter of God, John 1:12 we are justified, made righteous by the blood of Christ and the Holy Spirit dwells in us, and now we begin a relationship through God's Spirit, and God and Jesus abide in us, 2 John 1:9. This is the start of the race, the beginning of our salvation.
We are being saved. Philippians 1:6 Hearing the Word one believes and is baptized into Christ they are made clean (justification) the work of grace, and the Lord will continue working in us until He returns if we abide in Him John 15:3-5. How does God complete his good work in us? Testing James 1:2-4, chastising Heb. 12:6-7 Our relationship. If we abide in Him, Jesus, and God abides in us. The branches bear the fruit of the vine, the vine produces the fruit not us/branch, sanctification. We are running the race Philippians 2:12
We shall be saved. Redemption and glorification. Our full salvation comes at the end, when Jesus returns. Luke 21:28 "being now justified" We started the race. We are being saved, "being reconciled" we are running the race, 2 Cor. 5:18. We shall be saved at the end of the race. Romans 13:11.
Romans 13:1-7. You've asked a valid question from v2 & there are two ways of understanding it: is disobedience to the laws of civil govt bring on God's damnation or the condemnation by the dispensers of those laws? In context of the chapter, I believe that this applies to the latter, that of judgement by the magistrate. The Greek word here is 'krima', which applies to 'a judgement, a verdict, a condemnation'. So for whatever reason Paul is thinking of, the one who disobeys the laws, will face the judge (who sits under the authority of God for the good of society). So, one is not damned by God in this regard, but will be condemned by civil law, & yet God would expect us to be obedient to such laws, unless they are in opposition to His Own ( Acts 5:28,29), to His Laws we are subject first.
Philippians 2:12,13. The apostle writing to the Church, commends them for obeying the Lord, not only when he was with them, but also when he wasn't there; this shows that they were genuine in their faith & not 'putting on appearances' for Paul's sake. So this wonderful salvation that they possessed can never be allowed to become mediocre & lukewarm, therefore Paul encourages them to 'work it out', i.e. what they possessed should be continually worked out (in one's personal walk & in relation to others), and done so 'in fear & trembling'. Why fear? I see it as the outworking of our Salvation which is a very serious business, not given to flippancy & a lackadaisical view, but geared to pleasing the Lord in all things & ever ready to engage in battle with the tempter & seducer. True, we have 'not been given a spirit of fear', of what man or spirit can do to us, even because of overwhelming circumstances we might face, but of Holy Ghost Power, of Divine Love, & of a sound healthy regenerated mind. I trust you can see the difference in 'Fear' in these instances.
Then to your question, "If Jesus was a co-equal God in the three-person God, how could He be given anything He would already have it?" If we don't believe that Jesus came out from God's Person, then your question is valid. But if He did, then to become Man, taking on 'sinful flesh', He would have had to lay aside God's Glory & other Divine Attributes ( Philippians 2:5-8), so that He could be fully Man, to identify completely with those He would save & be their sin-bearer - for God in His Being cannot suffer & die as appointed unto men.
Thus when we read 1 John 4:2,3; we know that John is not speaking of an historical Jesus, for all knew of (or heard of) this One named Jesus of Nazareth Who lived & walked on Earth doing great things. But those who denied that this Christ from God had been brought down to Earth to be made flesh, were deemed by the apostle as not speaking by God's Spirit (& this is that Docetic heresy that was pervading the Church: that Divinity & Flesh cannot unite, so the incarnation is incredible). So dear brother, I can see your interpretation of such verses & was exercised by them to understand them the way you do, but for me to read them in that manner would cause me to violate my comprehension abilities & sensibilities.
Therefore, I think it best we leave off here, as much as I would like to continue, for I see no useful progress to be made when we read the Word so differently. Thank you again for your time & persisting in this - I do appreciate this very much. Every blessing.
Part two,
Hebrews 2:7 Jesus was fully human and was tempted just as we are Hebrews 4:15 God cannot be tempted, James 1:13. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Philippians 2:9 again my understanding is all was in and through Jesus in the plan and forethought in the mind of God, logos.
1 Peter 1:19-20 Yes in God's plan my understanding the Greek is not by whom but through whom the Greek word dia, same as in John 1:3 it is through Him not by Him. In Jesus and through Jesus being the first in God's plan came everything like you said "God's Plan & Purpose for redemption" the new creation that was in God's plan.
Jesus was the beginning in God's plan and was begotten in Mary's womb. Like today where you and I are to God it is the same as if we were there with Him on the new earth and His plan has been completed. He is the beginning and the end, and it started with Jesus His Son before any creation and in and through Jesus came all and in the fulness of time He was brought forth into the world.
As in John 1 God's word was manifested in the flesh of His Son Jesus. When Jesus was anointed and became the Messiah/Christ by the Holy Spirit, God was in Jesus and the words Jesus spoke were God's words. The light that shined through Jesus was God, the works were done by the Spirit of God in Jesus, all was done for the glory of God.
I know you may not agree but that is my understanding and if you have any other questions, I will reply to the best of my ability, I own you that. Can I answer all, no I cannot, there are many verses that I am still in search of the truth of.
Love you brother and God bless.
RLW
1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Philippians 2:9: yes, as a Son, Jesus is now subject to His Father & is exalted above all. Yet, the question remains unanswered, 'Who was Jesus prior to His Coming?' He wasn't called Jesus (though some believe in Christophany-type appearances in the OT), but the Scriptures, as I gave earlier, point to Him coming forth from within God.
1 Peter 1:19-21: "If Jesus pre-existed how could he be foreordained?" Jesus was foreordained before His coming to Earth - that was God's Plan & Purpose for redemption. But this verse tells us that Jesus was in God's Plan, but it doesn't speak of where Jesus came from at the beginning; this One Who from God, had framed the worlds ( Hebrews 1:2). I would think it nonsense if any would believe that Jesus, after His appearing, then ascended to the Father, & then made the worlds.
Rather than listing the Scriptures that show Jesus in the Flesh & returning to His Father triumphant (which we all agree to), we need to focus on whether the Scriptures show that He had a beginning before His earthly appearance - and these I gave which have not been addressed. Anyway, we'll leave it for now, as per your wish brother, but if any other 'non-trinitarian' wishes to continue this & specifically to exegete the Scriptures I gave earlier, then I will continue with it, as it is a most important doctrine to understand. Blessings.
I thank you for discussing this and I consider you as a brother in Christ. I do not feel I have represented Scripture in any kind of mystical or spiritual way. I am not trying to convince you, but to explain my understanding. I believe Jesus was a man same as the first Adam without sin, 1 Cor. 15:47 1 Timothy 2:5 Jesus is the only begotten Son of God miraculously conceived, born of the virgin Mary, Matthew 1:20 Acts 17:31 Rev. 12:5
Take Hebrews 1: 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father? How could God say I will be to him a Father and he shall be to me a Son if Jesus eternally existed with the Father.
Hebrews 2:7 from Psalms 8:5-6 God the Father made and set Jesus His only begotten Son over all His works of His hands this tells me the Father is the creator. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Philippians 2:9. To me that is simply saying God the Father is superior and they are not coequal, God the Father highly exalted Jesus His Son.
Christ means He is the Anointed One nothing is above God so God cannot be anointed or anoint Himself, God is the one who anoints, as Jesus was anointed with the full measure of the Holy Spirit/Ghost when He was baptized by John the Baptist. We also see in 1 Corinthians 11:3 This to me shows they are not equal, and God the Father is the head over all.
1 Peter 1:19-21 If Jesus preexisted how could he be foreordained? Eph. 1:10
Chris, I may could say more, maybe we can pick this back up again, but I hope you have some idea of my understanding, this is not to end this but just to pause I hope that is ok.
Jesus to me is Devine He is the Devine only begotten Son of God. He has been placed over all that is in heaven and earth and every knee will bow to Him. You do not think He had a beginning; I believe His beginning was in God's plan before any creation and was brought forth in the fulness of time.
God bless,
RLW
"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:" Philippians 2:9 KJV
"above every name". Even above Jehovah?
"That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth." Psalms 83:18 KJV
Jehovah's name was the highest name before.
I'm posting this for input not as a trivia question.
It seems to say that the name of Jesus after His sacrifice was placed above the name of Jehovah, do you believe this and if so should this reality affect our Christian walk?
Hence, Scriptures such as have referred to here & in other discussions: Mark 2:5-7; John 1:1-14; John 20:27,28; Philippians 2:5-8; Colossians 1:15-17; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; & others, are relevant in our discussions. I don't expect that we deal with all of these in one hit (maybe just the John 1 only), but in my understanding, these portions speak of Jesus prior to His coming to Earth - and these are the verses that we understand differently. The verses that speak of Jesus after His coming to Earth can only be correctly understood if we know Who He was before His coming.
You've shared John 1:1 just here, in reference to "what beginning" is spoken about. You understood it as "it was the word of God in Jesus", and also in other comments, that this 'beginning' is the beginning of Jesus' Ministry. So what I understand from you, is that when Jesus began His Ministry, God's Word came to Him/into Him, thus He brought that Word given to Him to the people.
The subject in John 1:1-18 is "the Word". Leaving aside for a moment 'Jesus receiving God's Word in the beginning of His Ministry', we read in John 1 that "the Word" was in "the beginning, with God & was God". So this Word is God (i.e. God cannot be Who He is without His Word actively in Him - also comparable to the Holy Spirit Who is God & a characteristic of His Existence, for out of God issues forth both His Word & His Spirit. All things were made by God through His Word (v 3), bringing Light & Life (v 4). Then John the Baptist says that he wasn't that Light but was to be a witness to it (vv 6-8); that Light which would come upon all men, made the world, but His own people rejected Him (vv 9-11). Onto Page 3.
Again, thanks Ronald for your comments here. Re: whether I consider you "a Gnostic", in relation to what you believe, there is no way to sugar-coat what clearly appears to be your belief. Even as someone here, a little while ago, labeled me a 'Pharisee', referring to the fact that I tenaciously stuck to God's literal Word & wouldn't bend to his spiritualizing the Scriptures. Of course, I took that label on the chin, & considered whether I was indeed in error or not, & moved on continuing to refute such belief & standing on God's Word as given & intended to be understood. Likewise, my hope is that, in your firm belief, you will not allow a label, correctly or incorrectly applied, to affect you, rather that these discussions are occurring now to air our beliefs & why we believe them (according to the Scriptures). You are a dear gracious brother in Christ, & I know that no two Christians will align perfectly in every teaching (unless belonging to a cult subject to indoctrination), but hopefully can make some headway in our understanding of the Word. Even Giannis has shared his knowledge of Greek & how the Greek mind understands what is given, so here again we can choose to accept or reject his offerings.
In regard to the many good Scriptures you gave on Jesus' words to the people, or even apostolic distinction between the Father & the Son, I cannot disagree, as to me these verses show the Son's position on Earth with the Father, His subjection, His glorifying of Him, & even His receiving His Word to give to the people as factual. These verses to me speak of His Humanity, of which Philippians 2:6-8 gives us the reason for His subservience to the Father & the laying aside of certain 'traits' to become a Man. So the Scriptures you shared are agreed with, but the question still before us is, 'was Jesus, prior to His Coming to Earth as a babe, only a thought & a plan in the Mind of God, or did He actually exist in a Form with/in God?' To Page 2.
True, we may not conclusively know the Form He took in Heaven, whether as the Word within God's Person (just as the Spirit in God was sent out), or as another Form outside of God yet closely connected to Him. The issue here is, whether Jesus existed (in some Form) prior to His appearing on Earth. If not, what do we do with such verses as given here? Can we really reinterpret them in any other way? Is that even possible? And we could add Micah 5:2 (a coming Ruler not going forth from Bethlehem, but from eternity), John 3:13 (Who was in Heaven, coming down from Heaven), John 6:38 (come from Heaven), John 8:56-58 (Jesus existed even before Abraham), Philippians 2:5-11 (His equality with God, but laid it aside to come & serve man), & Hebrews 1:1-3 (through Jesus God made the worlds).
I've understood your comments on Jesus' Life & Death as per His earthly sojourn. But unless we can understand Who this Jesus really is (i.e. whether a Creation of God to fulfil His Plans on Earth, or God Himself, He Who was from the beginning), then the substance of this Mystery can never be resolved. That is why textual examination is so important, especially when we can see other Scriptures that confirm our understanding. I apologize for not referring to your other comments (e.g. the soul/spirit, firstborn, etc), but wanted to keep this short & focus on Jesus before His appearance on Earth. GBU.
Your second question: "If Jesus was preexisting, an immortal being, God the son. How can an immortal being die?" There are varying beliefs about Jesus' position in Heaven prior to His incarnation. I rather simply accept John 1:1-18, John 14:10,11, John 16:27,28, 1 John 5:7, that Jesus came forth from God. Did He come out as a Divine Being in the presence of God, to be made a human for the sake of death, or did God take His Own Word & give Him flesh for this very purpose? We don't have a problem of God sending out His Spirit & the Spirit's indwelling in every believer (can He even be dissected?), but to send His Word out, clothe Him in a body, unnerves many.
"How can an immortal being die? How can God be tempted...How can God die?" God is Spirit - He is Immortal - He can never die. No one, having a spirit from God, can die - the body will perish, but who can destroy the spirit which cannot be touched by age or man's devices? But if the immortal is given a body, as Jesus received, or even as we also have to house our spirits, then the body will die but the spirit lives on. Can God take on flesh? A mystery no human can fully fathom, but truly "a body hast thou prepared me" ( Hebrews 10:5-7, taken from Psalm 40:6-8). So Jesus could be tempted & could die whilst in the body, and so in His complete identification with sinful men in need of salvation, Philippians 2:6-8 reminds us:
"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." "thought it not robbery" = Jesus didn't grasp onto/retain His equality with God, but 'emptied Himself' ('ekenosen'), laying aside His Glory, to become a Man, obedient to death that which was the Father's Plan.
Good to hear from you, very good question. First, the Roman Church elevated Mary to the queen of heaven the same title as Tammuz's mother we see Israel worshiping. They say she ascended to heaven and much more. If we look at Acts we see Paul said that David is still in his tomb and has not ascended to heaven, Acts 2:29 and Acts 2:34. Many believe after Jesus was resurrected saints were also resurrected and are in heaven and many pray to them. My understanding is no one has been resurrected all are in the grave asleep in death.
When God through His Spirit the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead He placed Jesus above all that is in heaven, on earth, and under the earth, Philippians 2:9-11. God placed Jesus on His right hand on the throne of God, therefore giving Jesus the power of the throne.
John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Jesus also said John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
God the Father and Jesus will dwell in us by the Spirit, not in temples made by hands like Jesus said in John 4:21-23 and we see in 1 Corinthians 3:16. We see in 1 John 4:12-16 it is by the Spirit that Jesus who is sitting on the right side of God on the throne of God as the only mediator between us and God has been given the power of the throne until all enemies are under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:27-28.
My humble understanding it is by the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit that Jesus can see and hear all. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and His God is our God the Father as Jesus said to Mary John 20:17.
God bless,
RLW
Part 1
And I will put my spirit within you, "AND CAUSE" you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Ezekiel 36:27.
The apostle Paul says that "for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus" ( Ephesians 2:10). The word "workmanship" means "that which is made, a work of art." It refers to a "masterpiece." What Paul's saying is that all God's children are His masterpieces.
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Dead Works.
In the Bible the phrase "dead works" is found in the book of Hebrews.
Hebrews 6:1-3.
"Repentance from dead works".
Repentance means to change the way we think. We need to change the way we think about dead works.
From the outside looking in we can't tell the difference between dead works and good works. They can look very much the same outwardly. They can be the same works, but they have different motives.
Praying can be a dead or good work.
Attending church can be a dead or good work.
Reading the Bible can be a dead or good work.
Telling others about Jesus can be a dead or good work.
That's why Jesus said what he said in Matthew 7:22-23.
Prophesying, casting out demons, performing miracles in the name of Jesus are all outwardly good things. But Jesus will reject "many" who do those things. Why? Because their hearts are wrong. These people have the wrong motivations for the things they do.
Dead works are any attempt to find favor, earn acceptance or be made righteous before God by one's own effort, ability or willpower.
Religion puts the emphasis on doing right. In contrast, Jesus and the apostles put the emphasis on believing right, because when we believe right we will naturally do right as a consequence.
If we can't tell outwardly, then how do we know what a good work is?
See part 2.
When considering the return of Christ from our perspective we look forward to the conquering King at His second coming (which in reality is at least His third appearance since He ascended from the grave as a sort of part b to His first appearing in the form of the Son of Man; and the Second Coming is split into the Rapture when He appears in the air and when He physically returns at Armaggedon being a sort of "fourth" coming).
Of course this term doesn't appear in scripture; nor does the Word "trinity". Rapture is what Harpazo means after translation to the term "rapturo" so it isn't in our English texts. In a broader context; Christ appeared in the Old Testament many times (known as a Christophene if it is spelled right). It would seem that the Preincarnate Christ would be there all times; in fact when the Lord communed with man; as no man can see God and live ( Exodus 33:20). The same could be said for Christ in all His glory; John fell at His feet as though dead in his encounter in Revelation ( Rev. 1:17-18).
It is truly profound to consider how Christ was reduced to the microscopic size of a human fetus; just as much as a virgin birth. Surely in that state the angels were protecting him; being part of the Godhead wasn't part of His earthly ministry ( Philippians 2:7) as He had to live as a substitute for us; but without sin as well as dying as our atonement as the perfect sacrifice. The fact that Christ died for His enemies is remarkable. How He took on our sins is incomprehensible as well; but this was God's plan from before the foundation of the earth.
May us all remember the verse Matthew 21:44 in regard to falling on Christ. When He returns He will fall on His enemies and crush all the empires of this world as foretold in Daniel 2:45. Let us fall down in worship and adoration today.
Agape. Rich P
Christ being a member of the Godhead never sinned. We see that He was tempted in all ways as we are as Hebrews 4:15 states.
In His own strength Christ certainly always had the right to do anything as well as the capability; but as we know God cannot lie ( Heb. 6:18 and other related scriptures). Thus; Satan truly was the only being that had the authority to give the right of rulership over the earth as a temptation; and Christ was the only recipient other than Antichrist who will receive this offer. The man of sin will accept it; and the world will accept THE LIE ( 2 Thess. 2:11-12). It was for our sake that Christ humbled Himself; even to death on a cross emptying Himself of all self promotion of His own glory for the sake of the Father's exaltation later. This encompasses a number of scriptures (see Philippians 2:7; Isaiah 53).
Thus; we see that the relationship among the Godhead brings humility followed by exaltation. We also should follow that guideline; knowing that no servant is greater than His master; we are also to suffer while in this brief earthly existence. ( John 13:16). How much of our own troubles are caused by our own sins varies; it is something we should overcome if we are truly to embrace His sufferings.
When we consider sinless perfection on a surface level we think of avoiding commission of acctions against God as well as avoiding omission of things we ought to do which is often neglected at the expense of the first issue. We can think of someone who never makes mistakes; never says a word that is unfitting; and other like characteristics. When examining in depth this subject we see how eternal spiritual laws and principles were always first and foremost; undergirding Christ's miracles. Salvation was shown to be more crucial than just healing (see Matthew 9:6); as the paralytic received healing along with forgiveness. Salvation is complete at the Resurrection of the just; inheriting new bodies
Philippians 2:12,13: is Paul reminding them, 'you have God's Salvation, now work it out (i.e. don't be slack or negligent in living the new life that Christ has purchased for you), & do so in fear & trembling - living the Christian life is a serious, disciplined matter, under the ministry of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
"Our Faith, Belief, Repentance are WORKS and a RESULT and EVIDENCE of, not REQUIREMENTS for, Salvation." There certainly must be an on-going evidence of Faith, Belief & Repentance in a believer's life, but none of the passages suggest that they cannot be requirements towards Salvation.
Part 5: Ezekiel 36:24-33. Indeed, this passage is all of God's Action: that Israel would be released primarily from Assyrian/Babylonian captivity & then ultimately "from all countries". But what happened? Have they yet received "a new heart & a new spirittaking away the stony heart of flesh? Their Messiah came, gave His Life for them & they yet remain obstinate & stony in heart. I believe this will yet happen ( Romans 11:25-27), when Israel will be saved. How will they be saved? These verses don't divulge this information, except God's Act to take away their sins.
And so we go back to what Jesus had commanded & to which the apostles obeyed, Mark 1:14,15 "Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: REPENT ye, and BELIEVE the gospel."
Acts 3:19, "REPENT ye therefore, and BE CONVERTED, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord" Israel in the future, will still need to believe & accept that Jesus was indeed their Messiah; maybe all Works in your understanding, but vital if they are to receive "a new heart & a new spirit".
I'll get to your new comment now.
I was puzzled by your comment:
"But I also note your belief that 'repentance & belief' are considered as 'Works done towards salvation', therefore it can have no place before salvation."
So allow me to clarify.
The Repentance and Belief of someone whom God has saved or plans to save, i.e. one of God's Elect, does NOT contribute in any way whatsoever TOWARDS their salvation. These are good works that we do because God has saved us or is in the process of drawing us to salvation. They will be evidenced in the life of the True Believer and are the RESULT of God working within us to will and to do of His good pleasure. Philippians 2:13
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the FAITH OF CHRIST, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Our faith, our repentance are WORKS OF THE LAW; we are commanded to believe, to have faith, to repent. But these works do not contribute to our salvation in any way.
It is Christ's faith that saves us. That is, Christ's faithfulness in paying for the sins of His Elect and then applying that salvation to their life and giving them an enduring faith in Him and a repentant heart; all of which is part and parcel of salvation itself.
Christ's argument is: If your law calls judges gods, why should I be held guilty of blasphemy for saying that I am the Son of God?
As per the other argument trying to discredit the word "one" sounds like your argument is that one doesn't really mean one, because Jesus used it to describe believers being one. I don't see how being one in unity as Christ's body somehow means that all the Bible verses about Jesus being God and divine suddenly don't apply? The verse about the Father and Son being one is only one of MANY verses competing the picture. The Bible already says Jesus the Word is God so how can you disregard that?
God: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 KJV
You: Word was "NOT" God?
"Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also." John 8:19 KJV
Have you thought about how your belief reconciles with verses like this above?
Isaiah 7:14 -
Yes, Jesus is called Immanuel which means "God with us". People called Jesus "God". He's King of King and Lord of Lords. Alpha and Omega, first and last. Do you believe Jesus is Lord? I believe that is a requirement for even being a Christian. A Christ follower should know who Christ is.
1 John 5:7-8
John 10:30
John 8:19
Genesis 1:26
Genesis 11:6-7 (plural "us" which includes Jesus, as per John 1:1)
Philippians 2:5-8
2 Corinthians 5:19
John 1:3
Matthew 28:19
1 Peter 1:2
2 Corinthians 13:14
Deuteronomy 6:4
John 14:10
John 20:28
1 John 2:22-24
Matthew 1:23-25
Colossians 2:9
Acts 17:29
Romans 1:20
Isaiah 7:14
Hebrews 1:8
Isaiah 44:6
Isaiah 43:11
by angelic hosts, saints, and believers along with the Father, we have to conclude that God is a unity of Persons as One Being or else God would have lied about being the only God and there is no others beside Him. Yet, just as Isaiah 45:23 says that every knee shall bow and every tongue swear" and in Philippians 2:10-11 says that every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus is LORD to the glory of God."
Isaiah 45:25" In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified.." so in Jesus, the promised Seed of Abraham, are all the seed of Abraham justified. Gal. 3:8;14 that is , those who believe in Jesus, whether Jew or Gentile.
Adam, thank you again for holding firm on this doctrine. We need to continue to speak forth what the Scriptures say concerning Who Jesus truly is, by the words He spoke, the inspired words of the apostles, and the works of Jesus that only God could do (forgive sins, heal the sick, give sight to the blind, control the weather, cast out demons, and be the only perfect sacrifice to atone for our sins.
Can you be EQUAL to your God, and yet, not be your God?
What would make you EQUAL to God?
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind BE IN YOU, which was also IN CHRIST JESUS,
Philippians 2:6 Who being in the form of GOD, though it not robbery, to be equal to God.
I understand this subject is hard to discuss in a short post, to cover all the many Scriptures, some seem the point one way and others the other way.
Do you think Jesus is only a created human being? Of course not, He is the Son of God, the Messiah, the anointed one, Jesus is our Lord, our savior whom God sent that shed His blood for the remission of our sins. Do I believe Jesus had a beginning the answer is yes.
Do you think that the Son of God did not exist before Jesus was conceived? If you think that the Son of God existed before the conception of Jesus, do you believe He was created?
Hard to answer, Scripture tells us Jesus was the beginning of the creation of God, Rev. 3:4. Jesus could not be a timeless eternal Son and be the beginning of the creation of God, God has no beginning. 1 Peter 1:18-20 Jesus was "foreordained before the foundation of the world but was manifest in these last times for you". If created means to bring into existence the answer would have to be yes.
Do you worship Jesus? Jesus is the mediator between God and us He is the only way to the Father and is worthy of worship and honor Him, Philippians 2:10.
Do you believe that Jesus is divine? If divine means Jesus is God my answer is no. Jesus is the Son of God our Savior, Messiah, King, in being those He is divine.
Hope this is what you were needing.
God bless,
RLW
Philippians 2:12,13. The apostle was concerned for the Church's behavior: vv 2-4 (disagreements, unloving, discord, striving & not esteeming). And of course, he gives the supreme example of the Mind of Christ in his Coming in the form of a Servant. So Paul goes on to write (v12), 'therefore as you have obeyed me in the past, not just when I'm around but now when I'm not with you, work out (put into practise/into operation) what your salvation has brought you, and do so in trembling & fear (in all diligence & seriousness)': my paraphrasing. "work out your own salvation" is the big question here. If it were to 'find your own way to God', or 'now that you are saved, make all effort to remain saved', then I don't believe that was Paul's teaching. As one Bible teacher often preached, "you have been given the gift of Salvation, now work it out in your life", i.e. 'be constantly in step with the Spirit, being humble before God, scrutinizing your life, keeping short accounts with Him; you can't add anymore to your salvation, or else it's no more of Grace but of works, so be diligent to not be slack but mindful of God's great Grace & your position in Christ'.
"His Faith". I did mean, God's Faith given to man to believe & to be exercised with. Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 12:3, are good examples - the Gift of God given to us is 'Grace AND Faith', for man's faith is incapable of apprehending the fullness of Christ's Sacrifice at the Cross for him & being exercised to please God.
1 Corinthians 9:27. A 'castaway' what Paul was referring to, was that he would be disqualified from this high calling if he was hypocritical by preaching salvation through Jesus & the power of that Risen Life, & yet be undisciplined in dealing with the appeals of his flesh. In this case, he would have failed - and maybe removed from ministry, even from earthly life itself. GBU
2 Peter 1:20 No PROPHECY of the scripture is (in and of itself it's) OWN private interpretation.
2 Corinthians 13:1 ...in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established .....
Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, ye shall surely not DIE:
Genesis 3:5 FOR GOD DOTH KNOW that in the day you thereof, then your EYES SHALL BE OPENED, and ye shall be as gods, KNOWING GOOD and EVIL.
This is ALL PROPHECY.
Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God SAID, Behold, the man HAS BECOME AS ONE OF US, to KNOW good and evil.....
The FRUIT was KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, the KNOWLEDGE of gods.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not WRITTEN in your LAW, ye are gods
John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the WORD the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken.
Psalms 82:6
Deuteronomy 10:17 your God is a God of gods, and Lord of Lords ....
Psalms 136:6 Give thanks unto the God of gods, for his mercy endureth for ever.
Now, Eve was a prophecy of the coming bride of Christ by HIS RESURRECTION, and what happened she was resurrected with her husband to never DIE.
The gift of God is eternal life.
God can even use Satan to speak prophecy, what did Satan say, Ye shall never DIE.
Luke 20:36 Neither can THEY DIE ANYMORE, Adam (Christ) took of the fruit and did eat with his wife and Christ and his wife (creation) DIED, and the spirit of the Father RAISED them as ONE FLESH), for they are equal unto the angels, and are the children of God, being the CHILDREN of the RESURRECTION.
Philippians 2:5 Let this MIND BE IN YOU, which also was in Christ Jesus:
Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, though it not robbery to be equal with God.
God Bless YOU!
The prophecies in Jeremiah were as much for the PROMISED ISRAEL as was it for national Israel.
National Israel was preached the gospel then, as promised Israel is preached the gospel today.
John came preaching the GOSPEL of the Kingdom of God saying REPENT of your SINS.
They didn't understand THEN, as we don't understand TODAY.
Christ was CRUCIFIED from the foundation of the world, the sins of the FLESH God sees NOT, only the righteousness of Christ.
National Israel had this gospel THEN, as well as promised Israel has it TODAY.
Psalms 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our sins from us.
So what was John message of REPENTANCE of our sins.
UNBELIEF is the ONLY sin that keeps us from the PRESENCE of GOD.
John 16:8 An when HE (Christ) IS COME (the second time as the Spirit of Truth), he (Christ) will reprove the world of SIN.
John 16:9 Of SIN because they BELIEVE NOT ......
You REPENT of the sins of UNBELIEF.
CONFESS your SINS of not understanding God's word.
ASK and you will RECEIVE.
John 9:41 ... If you were BLIND, you would have NO SIN, but because you say I SEE, your SIN (not understanding) remaineth.
You may have to read the WORD fifteen hundred times as LIGHT is shined into DARKNESS: our carnal mind of misunderstanding.
These words are meant for encouragement, not condemnation, we are all being JUDGED by the WORD.
Each of us STAND or FALL by those WORDS.
Look at yourself as GOD sees YOU, a NEW CREATION.
Philippians 2:5 Let this MIND be IN YOU, which was ALSO in Christ Jesus,
Philippians 2:6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God.
God Bless YOU!
I concur with Gigi.
Jesus was temporarily "made lower than the angels" Hebrews 2:9.
which refers to Jesus' status. The second Person of the Trinity took on human flesh.
Jesus was fully human and "made lower than the angels." However, Jesus is fully divine, too.
I've heard it put like this, By taking on human nature, Jesus did not relinquish His divine nature-God cannot stop being God.
Philippians 2:6-8. reads as follows.
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Jesus voluntarily relinquished this while on earth. He put himself under the will of the Father, "that is his role".
Therefore, the fact that the Son took on a human nature and made Himself subservient to the Father in no way denies the deity of the Son, nor does it diminish His essential equality with the Father. The "greatness" spoken of in this verse, then, relates to role, not to essence.
God bless
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. ( Ephesians 2:5-7).
This verse shows how God is rich in mercy; and goes beyond just a one time experience and puts his people on display for the Millennium and throughout eternity all because of what Christ accomplished on our behalf on the cross. In the present He is working out our salvation through fear and trembling (stating that we are to work it out but implying of course that it is His strength and surrender to the Spirit that accomplishes this: Philippians 2:12-13). This is known as "sanctification" followed by glorification after death or at the time of the Rapture/Resurrection of the saints.
I brought out before in the last post and many times in other posts that God chastises all those He loves. This isn't a popular concept especially among the "prosperity gospel" crowd. Indeed the KJV says we are bastards if we aren't being disciplined in this way ( Heb. 12:8). A human child through the love of the parents is disciplined as the famous "spare the rod and spoil the child" and many like sentiments in scripture indicate ( Prov. 13:24). Ephesians 4:22 says to put off the old man; and Galatians states that we are crucified with Christ (chapter 2; verse 20).
God has also expressed His love in honoring His covenants; both with national Israel and the new covenant with His church.
This would be my response to comments on difficulty conceiving of the value of what happened in the Old Testament. Indeed all scripture is good for instruction and all other tenets as stated in 2 Tim. 3:16. There is much to learn from mistakes of others as well as worthy acts of saints of all ages in scripture.
Holy Spirt states 1John 2:1 children do not sin, & if you do. Indicating their state
Then in 1John 2:12-14 Holy Spirit distinguishes the maturity of the believers, as children who sins are forgiven for His name sake, the young men who have overcome the wicked one & the fathers that have known Him from the beginning, each according to the measure of the Spirit they received in their growth in Christ.
1Pet 5:1 Peter here makes a distinction, in exhorting the elders that are among them
1John 2:6
Your wrong it does imply this, as plenty of Scriptures confirms this.
Rom 8:29, conformed to the image of His Son,
1John 3:3 pure as He is pure
Gal 2:20 not I but Christ lives in me, only the pure in heart see & experience this on the spiritual level Paul is speaking from here.
we think, talk & walk as He did. 1Cor 2:16 we have the mind of Christ. Philippians 2:5
2Pet 1:3 freely has given us all things,
Luke 10:19 He's not talking about physically hurt here, as the Scriptures give witness too.
Luke 12:5 & that fear is to depart from evil, sin along can hurt us.
Col 3:10 Ephesians 4:23,24 the renewing of our minds in the knowledge after the image of Him that created him,
"the new man", is the work of Sanctification of the Spirit, bringing us into ever increasing measures of growth to maturity in Christ, the divine nature, fruits of the Spirit & ultimately being born again of the Incorruptible Seed,
your comparisons paragraph
you end with "how are you going to walk differently? You answered your own question
quoting you "I DON'T always in the human perfectly follow" one's not abiding in the Vine & according to this Scriptural statement, one has transgress against the Light, which the Spirit declares in the contest of these Scriptures is that one is still a child, for the young men have overcome the wicked one & the fathers have likewise.
Last par; Yes, this is the heart of the Father in sending His Son, Christ being the first born among many brethern
John 15:2: "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."
I heard so many people saying that salvation cannot be lost. I think there is a necessity to define what "lost" means. Does it mean losing the communion with the Lord on this earth? Or does it mean going to hell after death? In my argument, I have chosen the latter definition, losing salvation = going to hell after death. If one finishes up not making it to heaven, it means the person has lost his salvation because the goal of salvation is to live where Jesus is ( John 14:3)
1. Who are the branches Jesus spoke about? The believers, here Jesus was not talking about non-believers (because they are not "branches").
2. Two types of branches: Branches that abide in Jesus, and branches that do not abide in Him, meaning believers who abide in Jesus, and believers who do not. Those who abide bear good fruit, but those who do not abide bear no fruit.
3. Note that there is a difference between accepting Jesus and abiding in Him. Some people accept Jesus but do not ABIDE in Him, meaning that they do not obey and completely surrender to Him in their journey.
4. Those people (who believed at first, but did not abide in Him later) are the branches that do not abide in Jesus, and therefore, they will be cut off.
Conclusion: It is a big mistake to believe that one cannot lose salvation once saved. Philippians 2:12-13 said, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you..." If salvation is "granted" once, why did the Apostle Paul say we should work with "fear" and "trembling"?
I Corinthians 9:27: "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." Look at the last word of the verse. "CASTAWAY", meaning losing salvation.
Brethren, Let's walk in holiness.
1 Cor 10:33, "Even as I(Paul) please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
Philippians 2:19-21, "19But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timotheus shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state. 20For I have no man likeminded, who will naturally care for your state. 21For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's."
Lets pay attention to verse 21. Even at that time people were interested in their affairs, with some exceptions like Paul and Timothy. How difficult is for one to devote himself to the needs of others. But Jesus did exactly that.
Have a blessed weekend.
I like you was sincere, etc, but I was sincerely wrong, oh how I struggled, the veil always separated me from my Beloved, there was no pure unity of the faith & oneness that Christ prayed for, my conscience bearing witness against me, no matter how I cried, repented, fasted, prayed or studies the letter, & walk accordingly, yet, the veil was still hung between us & why? 2Cor 3:6 I remember it quiet well, a yoyo of an experience.
1 Cor 15:34,45 true knowledge is given by the true Grace of God who appears bringing salvation to all mankind.
Ronald, have you ever had an unction that cross your own will, telling you not to do or say something & show you what to do or to say? & if not heeded to, condemn you for it? Or maybe you were in a tryst state, & say or did something & later Holy Spirit/ Grace convicted you of wrong? This is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, Grace/Light/Anointing we have received & appears within us, & if minded & exercised is the daily Cross & is not a lie, abide in Him & in the steadfast confidence continual exercising of it, will eventually set us free from the law of sin & death. Received by Luke 10:42 Psalms 130:5"the word of His Grace, who words are Spirit & Life" Psalms 145:12-18 Psalms 123:2 Psalms 62:5 meaning silencing all thoughts & imaginations & in stillness of soul, wait. Psalms 46:10 and He will appear Hebrews 9:28 . Believing that it is He appearing to you is faith, hearing the Word of God in the heart, that Paul preached & this faith purifies the heart & gives victory over the world.
2Cor 3:16-18 this stillness & waiting upon the Lord is turning to Him, who is Spirit, whom takes the veil away & gives us knowledge of Himself, 2Cor 4:6,7 setting us free from the bondage of sin, we know the Truth & the Truth set us free & transforms us into His Image. Light begets light, in whom there is no darkness at all.
causing you Philippians 2:13 Hebrews 13:21 "obviously this is not sinning".
Grace be to you
Part two
What does it mean to believe? What is the evidence that we believe? As Paul said, it is like running a race, when we start this race, we believe we are going to finish, and with God's Spirit we have all the determination and motivation we are not only going to finish this race we are going to win this race.
We are saved! We are being saved! We shall be saved! When we start, are all our sins forgiven, our past, present, and our future sins the moment we accept Jesus Christ as our Savior and are baptized? Is our salvation guaranteed and we cannot lose it or fall out of grace regardless?
We are saved. Eph. 2:5 When we accept the gospel and are baptized our sins are blotted out, Isaiah 44:22 Acts 3:19 and we become a child/son/daughter of God, John 1:12 we are justified, made righteous by the blood of Christ and the Holy Spirit dwells in us, and now we begin a relationship through God's Spirit, and God and Jesus abide in us, 2 John 1:9. This is the start of the race, the beginning of our salvation.
We are being saved. Philippians 1:6 Hearing the Word one believes and is baptized into Christ they are made clean (justification) the work of grace, and the Lord will continue working in us until He returns if we abide in Him John 15:3-5. How does God complete his good work in us? Testing James 1:2-4, chastising Heb. 12:6-7 Our relationship. If we abide in Him, Jesus, and God abides in us. The branches bear the fruit of the vine, the vine produces the fruit not us/branch, sanctification. We are running the race Philippians 2:12
We shall be saved. Redemption and glorification. Our full salvation comes at the end, when Jesus returns. Luke 21:28 "being now justified" We started the race. We are being saved, "being reconciled" we are running the race, 2 Cor. 5:18. We shall be saved at the end of the race. Romans 13:11.
See part three.