Introdution: According to 1 Thessalonians 5:9 we are not appointed to wrath. Romans 9:22 seems to indicate that there are indeed "vessels of wrath" doomed for destruction which seems to fulfill what some call "double predestination" or wicked destined for hell. We do know that all those who are NOT written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world will accept the Mark of the Beast and in fact worship him. ( Rev. 13:8; 17:8 and also in chapter 20). Whether we just play out what is already determined; or God knows ahead of time what we will choose is something we can argue about.
Since this Antichrist is indeed the "man of sin" ( 2 Thess. 2:3) and we can also call the son of perdition in John 17:12 as representing Judas Iscariot who also was destined to betray God and be lost according to the prophecy in Psalm 55 along with the same fate for this Beast from these and other passages; we once again see God's hand in this. God is the one according to Thessalonians that sends "strong delusion" ( 2 Thess. 2:11). That is because people loved sin so much that they didn't want to repent; and we see this with the behaviors that occur during the Trumpet judgments in particular.
These facts are sobering; we know that if it weren't for His grace we would never see clearly our sin nature and hence we all would fall for this false Messiah. This world system has nothing to offer; nor does any man who is unregenerate to give lasting peace. Neither sacrifices of animals or man's own sufferings procure any justification or forgiveness of sins; and God is not impressed with any of our accomplishments. Self gratification no doubt will be a large part of the universal appeal; along with self preservation that eventually leads to the acceptance of this infamous mark. Luke 12:12 may have double fulfillment; both for the Apostles facing martyrdom and the end time saints who refuse the mark.
Hello Havefaith85: It must be hard to know a loved one is suffering. My prayers are with you and your wife and your daughter also. God is a great, loving Father and He WILL meet your needs according to His will.
Don't feel like you can't pray whenever you need to. Asking for prayer for real and sincere needs is something God always wants us to do. He is our Heavenly Father and loves us unconditionally. Go to Him always with your needs and reach out to your brothers and sisters in the Lord also because the bible says to pray without ceasing which includes praying with other Christians.
1 Thessalonians 5: 16-18
"16. Rejoice evermore. 17. PRAY WITHOUT CEASING 18. In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you."
Father God we lift up David's family and ask for your blessing and protection over them, particularly his daughter's family. I've seen David's faithful posts over a long period of time asking for your help like it says in 1 Thessalonians 5:17. We ask you to lift up David and his family, bless them, invite them to be in closer communion with you, and use them for your glory and for furthering your holy kingdom. We pray in the name of Jesus, Amen.
Hi Cheryl1655. The passage you read in Revelation 21:1-3 about the new heaven (sky) & new Earth and then the New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven, are events (including those in Revelation 22) that will take place right at the very end of earthly time as we know it. This account shows us the end of Satan & his influence on mankind, the end of sin & corruption, & the arrival of a complete renewal of God's original creation, with God in the midst. These are glorious visions which the Apostle John received from Jesus for those end times, and sadly the vision of all those who have rejected Jesus & loved to live in sin, hating the God of Heaven, these will go into punishment of everlasting fire ( Revelation 21:8).
"The meeting in the sky" is what I believe you're referring to as the Rapture, or 'the snatching away' (Latin, 'rapio'; Greek, 'harpazo'), and this is referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, which the Apostle Paul's was teaching to those Churches. Now this event (the Rapture) is a subject that has a whole range of views & beliefs amongst Christians, as we piece together what information we're given in the Bible, figuring the how, when, where, this occurs (or, likely to occur). However, to answer your question, my understanding of the Scriptures is that the Rapture ('the lifting up of the living & dead in Christ & meeting Jesus in the sky') is the next great event in God's 'calendar', where His saved, holy ones are removed from the Earth before His Wrath is poured upon the Earth of unbelievers (otherwise called, the Great Tribulation of God's Wrath (see Matthew chapter 24)). See also 1 Thessalonians 1:10 & 1 Thessalonians 5:8-10.
However one views this 'snatching away' & the Day of God's Wrath upon the Earth, the message to those IN CHRIST is clear: BE READY, Live lives pleasing to the Lord, that we may "not be ashamed before Him at His Coming" ( 1 John 2:28,29). GBU.
Jeremiah 5:30-31 declares: "A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land; The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?"
1 Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."
I know that I am a sinner, so what can I do to be saved? The answer is, there is nothing that I, being DEAD in trespasses and sins, can do to affect my salvation!
Ephesians 2:1 "And you hath he quickened [made alive], who were DEAD in trespasses and sins;"
John 6:29 "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."
Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST..."
Romans 9:15-16 "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
So what about the churches that say, we will show you how to become saved, or, you must be baptized in water and partake of the Lord's supper? Virtually every church promotes a do-it-yourself salvation, which is not that of the Bible! The baptism that is required is the washing away of our sins, which only God can perform. When we meditate on the word of God with a view to being obedient to it, we are feeding on the flesh and drinking the blood of the Lord Jesus.
John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
Salvation is 100% the work of God. If we are trusting in any work that we do for Salvation, we are trusting in a FALSE GOSPEL that cannot save.
Visit ZionInTravail on youtube and the web to lean more about the True Gospel of Salvation and the Day in which we are living.
Again, dealing with your recent comments to me, now in one post, Shabbat Keeper. Firstly, Adam has written very well to Jema, so I won't bring up the matter of the definition of "eternal/eternity", which should alone convince us that physical death is not the end for anyone (believer or unbeliever).
If I'm correct from your first post to me, "what an icky thought it is, to stop existing", you believe in the total annihilation of the body at death (for the unbeliever). So, when the Bible speaks of man, his existence & his death, we are first reminded that man is a tripartite being (i.e. one whose composition is of body, soul & spirit: 1 Thessalonians 5:23). When the body dies, it decomposes back to the Earth, but those parts of man that cannot be killed ( Matthew 10:28) can never be destroyed. Unlike animals, man's spirit, given by God, returns to Him ( Ecclesiastes 3:21), whereas animals cease to exist - forever. Therefore, if man, made by God to reflect His Image & traits, is accountable to God, will never cease to exist (his spirit & soul cannot be destroyed, whether by death, fire, or whatever), & he will stand in judgement before God. For this reason, the Gospel is so vital for all to hear, to alert all people that death is not final - there remains an accountability & their final judgement will be based on what they have done with Jesus Who came for them.
You wrote, "Hell fire is the same thing as destruction" & you gave the example of a house on fire. A house is physical/material, a spirit is not - it can never be destroyed. The real Shabbat Keeper or myself are found in our spirits/souls - the body is simply the house in which we need to live in. So yes, this house is corrupt & temporal, but we who have Christ's Spirit in us, look to be clothed (endowed) with that "house which is from heaven" ( 2 Corinthians 5:1-6). Likewise, hell (not the grave), is the dwelling place of those who have spurned God's Love - spirits they are & in torment.
"Hello brother Spencer, Good evening! Thinking of doctrine, the Church practice of
giving and taking reproof by love maybe is part of what you are thinking? Church discipline and restoration?
God bless the walk.
Brother Carleton, That I absolutely agree with! However, that is not in the context of this message.
This message is more in line with Jude 1:3-4 with the focus on what is mentioned in verse 4 "For there are certain men crept in unawares,"
This has the thought of some has come into the fold sort of like through a back door.
Jude 1:10-15. He describes them. They are not Brothern. They are not Sheep.
As for "A Holy kiss.
Does the bible say greet "them" with a Holy kiss? No, I don't think so.
Romans 10:8-10 says the words is ni thy mouth.
These words is what we can confess to others if asked by what means are you saved.
However, what about the guy whom from his heart "by his mouth" speaks against truth?
We don't judge his present spiritual condition; he's done it ALREADY by refusing to believe and enter in the straight and narrow gate. See Matthew 7:13-15. and John 3:18.
What do these verses concerning a Holy kiss have in common? This Holy kiss is for the Brothern.
1 Corinthians 16:20.
2 Corinthians 13:11-12.
1 Thessalonians 5:26.
Romans 16:16.
The Holy kiss wasn't only meant to express love for the Brothern.
The Holy kiss is meant to express acceptance especially at a time when Gentiles was coming into the fold.
It certainly wasn't for non-believers.
Look at 2 John1:10. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed.
Also see Romans 16:17-18.
Does open rebuke harm a brother?
Open rebuke is better than secret love.
Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. Proverbs 27:5-6.
God Bless You all, prayer request for healing. And prayers for each other that we keep on keeping on. I'll meet you all in the air.
1 Thessalonians 5:2
"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."
1 Thessalonians 4:16
"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
1 Thessalonians 4:17
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (7 years in Heaven and in Revelation 19:11-21 Christ returns with His Saints and the Angels)
Revelation 3:10
"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
Matthew 5:12
"Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in Heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Grace and Salvation and the Holy Spirit will remain. The Body of Christ is he who hinders, God said the Holy Spirit will abide with thee forever. Zech 14:16-21 speaks of those that are left, without the mark or and who did not worship the image will serve year to year.
Isaiah 19:23-25
23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.
End time signs we have no need to write to each other that already know. Keep sharing His word when can but also being ready to meet in the air. Don't let all the 'no rapture' or 'post-trib' whatever else there is. Many false prophets will come the Word tells us. God Bless you all.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-111
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
The 7-year time period mentioned throughout scripture, but described in detail in the books of Daniel and Revelation, is also known as
The great tribulation ( Matthew 24:21)
The Day of the Lord ( Isaiah 2:12; 13:6-9; Joel 1:15; 2:1-31; 3:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2)
Trouble or tribulation ( Deuteronomy 4:30)
The time of Jacob's troubles ( Jeremiah 30:7)
Toward the end of Daniel's life, he has a vision described in Daniel 12.
"At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, every one who is found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars forever and ever."- Daniel 12:1-3
From this passage, we know that
Unprecedented, troubling times are on the way.
There will be some who will awake to "everlasting life."
There will be some who will awake to "shame and everlasting contempt."
Those who are wise will shine.
A further study of this passage and the 7-year tribulation reveals more about the troubling times and who will awake to everlasting life and who will awake to everlasting contempt.
Everlasting life is given by those who trust in Jesus for their salvation.
Everlasting contempt is given to those who do not trust Jesus.
As a added nail to the Scriptural Truth & confimation of the doctrine of perfection in this present life
1Pet 4:1
we must be still in our mortal flesh, to suffer in the flesh, & to cease from sin
its the working of Grace / Cross in denying ungodliness & worldly lust that the carnal minded, which is in enmity against God that must be crucify & the learning of righteousness is the suffering described here,
As we continue in well doing, ever increasing in the measure of His Spirit
we come to Psalms 40:8
I spoke to Chris once about this, but it's worth saying it again, my present measure is in the state of man before he fell, yet still capable of falling, & I have ! I found that in humility, 'Truth in the inward parts" & confessing the least motions of His convictions within my conscience is the key to growing in Grace. I learn to love it when He nails me, its His judgment of lovingkindness drawing me closer to Him, instilling in me the fear of the Lord & by continuing in this state of brokeness I receive strenght to overcome all the wiles of the devil, thus far 1 Thessalonians 5:24
What God requires is that we walk according to the Truth that we know, as we abide in it, it cleanses us through the continuing exercising of the Grace received, once we mature in that present measure, God gives the increase & the process of sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience & Sprinkling of the Blood/Life of Jesus within us increases, until that final day of Luke 3:16,17 refer to Rom 6:3-52Pet 1:19 "not I, but Christ
Folks, awake to Righteousness & Christ will give you Life
with all that be open on the subject, those who willful choose not to believe, will have no excuse when they stand before a Holy Holy Holy God to give an account of the Light that's has been reveal to them, folks please consider.
Another thought, in light of the whole of Scriptures, only the devil influnence upon mankind would plead to remain in unbelief & sin, this doctrine come only from Rev 17:5
Please refer to my respond to Chris re Heb 4:12 and 1 Thessalonians 5:23.
On your statements regarding the Wrath of God and the nature of Christ's Atonement, I must disagree.
I would encourage you to carefully read Isaiah 53, the entire chapter.
And also consider these verses:
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Colossians 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
So if God has "saved" us, it means that Christ, eternal God Himself, had taken upon Himself every dirty rotten sin that we have committed or ever will commit, and has paid the full penalty for those sins, the Wrath of God, Eternal Death, which we rightly deserve, required by the Law of God, as our substitute. And He has freed us from Bondage to Sin and Satan, and has raised us from Spiritual Death and given us Eternal Life. And will at the Last Day, complete our Salvation by giving us our Resurrected Spiritual Body ( 1 Corinthians 15) in which we will live and reign with Christ as joint inheritors with Christ of the New Heavens and New Earth for ever more.
No apologies necessary. Thanks to you and Jimbob for the 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 12:4 verses.
One thing I know for a certainty is that God did not choose words or phrases idly as He has wrote the Bible. We must compare scripture with scripture using the principles that God lays down for us in the Bible if we hope to come to truth. We must always be willing to examine any understanding we may have in the light of any verse or passage in the Bible that deals with the question at hand.
God did not write the Bible in a way that it is always easy to come to truth. It is often very difficult. And if we begin to isolate verses and passages from the rest of the Bible or approach a question based on the wisdom of men (let God be True, but every man a liar, Rom 3:4) we can very quickly and easily be led down a wrong path.
The Bible is its own dictionary and its own interpreter. And we must always be mindful that it is God Himself who must open our understanding and give us ears to hear as we seek truth from His Holy Word, the Bible. And that He does this on His own timetable and for His own purposes.
I would need to further study the relationship between Soul and Spirit as God uses these terms throughout the Bible before arriving at a distinction between the two.
At this point, I don't see anything in these two verses that would change my understanding of 1) the Spiritual condition of Mankind apart from God's mercy in Salvation, nor 2) what happens to a True Believer when they become Born Again, nor 3) what happens to a True Believer when their Body dies Physically, nor 4) what happens to a True Believer at the Resurrection of the Last Day.
I have stated what I believe God has declared regarding these teachings in many of my comments, along with some of the scriptural references dealing with these questions. All of which are ultimately speaking to aspects of Salvation itself and how God deals with those whom He saves.
Hi David0921. Apologies for intruding into your conversation with Jimbob, but wanted to also refer you to 1 Thessalonians 5:23, as you spend time in Hebrews 4:12. There seems to be a clear distinction made in describing tripartite man, especially noting the contiguous nature of soul and spirit.
Hi Gasman. Yours are good questions & often very debatable when considering the construct of man & the Work of the Holy Spirit within Him or even, upon Him. Firstly, we do understand from the Word, that we are tripartite beings (i.e. composed of soul, spirit & body): 1 Thessalonians 5:23. The 'body' aspect we know, but it can be difficult to correctly understand the difference between the soul & spirit. So, if we take it as the soul being our mental, emotive powers & the spirit being the 'life force', all given by God so that can be living creatures able to experience all that God has given us & of course, our return of worship & thanks to our Creator, then we can somewhat understand how God's Spirit connects with us.
Only when a person has been born again by God's Spirit ( John 3:3), can that person be in a new revived position of receiving & giving communication to our Heavenly Father. God sends His Spirit to be with us & in us ( John 14:17), but His Spirit doesn't replace our spirit, nor does He overrule us to the extent that we cease to think & behave as ordinary people. So, when He ministers to us (whether in decision-making, personal conduct, in worship, in understanding the Word, etc.), it becomes our choice as to whether we allow His gentle & precise ministry to influence us or not. Sadly, we often allow carnal thoughts or pre-conceived ideas or beliefs to take precedent over His, much to our detriment. But when we are truly walking (& worshiping in the Spirit) - Galatians 5:16,25 - then we will truly know His Peace, that which 'surpasses all our understanding & inclinations' ( Philippians 4:7), joyfully allowing Him to lead us, especially in worship & in faith, for all we experience.
Your questions 'to which spirit'? Our spirit is never laid aside in the functioning of man - our faculties are always in force. It is how much we allow the Holy Spirit to take control in our lives, our worship, even 'wisdom in allowing others into our lives' ( Romans 8:1-28).
I also agree and hold to the outline Brother Chris gave on the 70 weeks but I term "the great tribulation" as the 2nd half of the 70th week as you do. "3 and a half years."
I believe in Mathew 24:15-16 and Mark 13:14 Jesus describes the abomination of desolation as the beginning of the Great tribulation. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.
I believe Daniel 8:23-25 describes the rise and first half of the 70th week.
"And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, AND BY PEACE SHALL DESTROY MANY: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."
Also we see this false world peace mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 5:3.
We see today an urge to leave the narrow gate and merge other religious practices and religions into the Church.
The Nation of Islam uses the Bible and false so called Christian preachers to bridge the gap of their version of Islam and Christianity today.
The Antichrist is coming to set himself up above ALL THAT IS CALLED GOD.
2 Thessalonians 2:4.
"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will. Colossians 1:9
And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. Luke 15:20-24
Rejoice evermore. Pray without ceasing. In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. 1 Thessalonians 5:16
O give thanks unto the Lord; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. Psalm 136:1,2
Thanks Yasser72 for the clarification. And yes, you make a good point about a letter (whether personal or general to the Church(es); should that letter be sent out for further distribution? I had never considered any of the apostolic letters in such a way.
You gave the example of a postmaster opening & reading your letter to others. That normally would be a valid point because no one expects, or is lawful, to open up private mail & share the contents with others. The only thing with your example is that the letter in question is still current, the sender is alive & the recipients would also be hurt by knowing that others were privy to the contents. What if your personal letter was sent, intending that other believers in that city or country would gain benefit from it (e.g. through the media), but especially to the ones addressed? Or, if your letter was left in someone's drawer, was found 100 years after you died & indeed, the recipients also died, would it really matter to you or anyone else that your letter was found & read?
I think we have many examples of personal letters that exist today written by people of old that have been archived or published in newspapers/books. I really don't see a problem in this scenario, and I'm quite sure that Paul & the others wouldn't have minded that the contents of their letters receive a wider readership (see 1 Thessalonians 5:27 (could have included others that the Thessalonian Church had contact with) & Colossians 4:15,16). Even the Letter by John given by the Jesus Christ, was intended to be 'revealed unto his servants (all of us) things which must shortly come to pass...' ( Revelation 1:1). So I do believe that what we have in the Bible today, has been appointed by God & intended for the widest distribution so that all people might come to know the LORD & His Christ, made conscious of their sin, & run into the Arms of a Loving Savior. These letters have helped us greatly, causing us to understand & act upon this Truth.
Thanks Tammy. Yes 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 is very important. You're correct that Paul gives them insight when the Day of Christ will begin. The Thessalonians feared that it had already begun, being troubled by false teachers, that they were in it already (because of 2 Thessalonians 1:4) & the Lord had not yet come (even as Paul had earlier spoken to them about "these things" (v5)). So again, Paul had to rehearse these matters with them to assure & comfort them to pay heed to him & not others, that they had not missed out on Christ's coming, "and by our gathering together unto him".
That there has to first be a departure from the faith (an apostasy); I understand this to be the general deterioration within the Church (as we even see now with the preaching of error & the Church, which ought to be seen as the Light & Body of Christ, has become in many places, a haven for Satan to have his way & lead many devout earnest people happily into hell's pit). And after this will be the revelation of the anti-Christ.
Is it at this point (mid-trib) that you believe the world, including the Church will go into the Great Tribulation & come under the anti-Christ? Or, could it be that this is at the very beginning of the Day of Christ, where the Great Tribulation is about to begin but first there will be the "falling away & the revelation of the man of sin"? If, as I believe, the Gt. Tribulation is the tribulation from God (His Wrath & not man's daily tribulations), then I understand Paul stating to the believers there, 'the rapture will happen first at the introduction of the man of sin & then God's Wrath - so don't be misled that that day has already started.'
Before the Wrath (the Great Tribulation) must come the rapture - the anti-Christ is revealed because God has allowed it by removing His Restrainer - and if His Wrath is to be poured out on unbelievers, where is His Church, the one which was not appointed to receive His Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:9)?
Introduction to eschatology discussion regarding timing of events from Rapture to 2nd Coming (continued).
As stated previously; I wish to look to the Word to explain itself. I also wish to maintain the hope of 1 Thessalonians 5:11 in light of our appearing before the King of Kings. I take the minority opinion that perhaps not all will be Raptured who believe as it appears to be a reward issue and because of certain language related to those in white garments washed in the blood; which appears to indicate those who previously had spotted or wrinkled garments and were not part of those in Ephesians 1:4.
I don't think it prudent to delve too deeply here into that concept; what I will say is that verses like Luke 21:36 and Revelation 3:10 at the very least should cause us to examine ourselves to see if we are saved and the Spirit is communing with us.
We should understand that not all who call themselves Christians truly are saved; and that parables like that of the 10 virgins whether it is an analogy of the church or of unbelieving Israel; whether it speaks of readiness for the Rapture or the Second Coming it certainly is a warning for us all to be ready. We can look to Revelation the same way; it is certainly applicable to those already under persecution and distress even with some unique characteristics to Tribulation events in history.
I am also as I probably made clear in earlier posts pretty dogmatic on taking a literal approach to scripture; and in Revelation taking things as indicated at least in chronological order or at least sequentially. I also emphasize the concept of Predestination in Revelation; as well as showing how great revival and restoration of the nation of Israel are some reasons for this final conflagration and time of terrible judgments. We should not be glib but sober minded when we consider the magnitude of these events. I contend that the church age is still in effect in it's final stages; the end of the age is near.
1) The day of the Lord is mentioned 31 times in the bible, 26 times in the Old Testament and 5 in the New Testament.
To my knowledge nowhere in scripture it mentions any removal of the saints.
Here's a few.
Isaiah 2:12; 13:6, 9; Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3; Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31; 3:14; Amos 5:18,20; Obadiah 15; Zephaniah 1:7,14; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi 4:5) and several times in the New Testament ( Acts 2:20; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 2 Corinthians 1:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:2; 2 Peter 3:10). It is also alluded to in other passages ( Revelation 6:15-17; 16:14).
In 2 Peter 3:3-18 we are told the Lord is longsuffering to us-ward, and holding back his wrath not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Notice something in verses 11 and 12.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? ITS A QUESTION!!
The answer is NO!
Here's what were looking for;
Verses 13-16.
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
See part 2 and the second issue I have with that view.
Who are those who are left? ( Mt 24:40-41) and ( Luke 17:34-36) Tell us "one shall be taken, and the other "left" ( 1 Thessalonians 1:10) Tells us "which (delivered) us from the wrath to come" The word (delivered) is #4506; it means to rush or draw (for oneself) rescue. So True Believers are (delivered) or (rescued) (saved) from the wrath to come! The True Believers are the ones taken, the ones left will face the wrath to come. ( Jn 3:36) Tells us He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life (those taken), and those who believeth not the Son the wrath of God abideth on him (those left). ( Romans 5:9) Tell us we are (saved) from wrath through him. The word (saved) is #4982; it means "safe" to save, i.e. deliver or protect. The same meaning as the word (body) in ( Luke 17:37) Which are those who are (taken) (saved) from the wrath to come, they are the (body) of Christ. ( Romans 1:18) The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteous of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. ( Col 3:6) "the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience" ( Eph 5:6) "because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience" The word (disobedience) is #543; it means to disbelieve (willfully and perversely) not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. (These unbelievers will be the ((ones left)) to face the wrath of God) As for True Believers? ( 1 Thessalonians 5:9) "For God hath not appointed (us) to wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ". Believers will be (saved) (delivered) (rescued) from the wrath to come. He will receive True Believers unto Himself. The word (taken) means to receive near. ( John 14:3) Tells us "I will come again, and receive you unto myself". The ones (taken) are saved from the wrath to come! The ones (left) the wrath of God abideth on them! ( Mt 24:29-31) clearly tells us (when) this event takes place. (Immediately after the tribulation) Truth matters. Blessings.
Hi Natasha St John! If you read in Revelation 7:4-8 It explains that the 144,000 are out of the 12 tribes of Israel. As we read on starting with verse 9 we see that the nations that make up the rest of the world, that have their garments washed white in the blood of the Lamb, are a multitude that no man could number. So the 144,000 are only those that God has sealed, out of the 12 tribes of Israel. Now we know because God's Word is truth and there is a thread in the bible. Isaiah 64:6 says that all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. In Matthew 7:21-23 says that God will say depart from me ye workers of iniquity. Also in
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 it says, Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. And in Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. So by fallowing the thread of the Bible we can clearly see that the 144,000 are only out of the 12 tribes of Israel, they are washed in the blood of the Lamb and sealed by God. The rest of the world is the multitude that no man can number and is also washed in the blood of Christ Jesus.
I hope this answers your question.
I always try to remember these verses; 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Were you born in 1939, if so your just a little older than myself? I'm a 40's child.
Yes, darkness was over the land from 6th to the 9th hour.
This literally was reality; and is still reality, that darkness has manifest itself even till NOW.
Christ is the LIFE of ALL MEN; though most are in darkness, they don't believe the HOUSE (our body) was made desolate by the death of Christ.
All mankind was made desolate: by his death; dwelling in darkness, and he AROSE, as the DAY STAR, and shined LIGHT (his WORD) into DARKNESS, and the darkness comprehended it NOT.
Creation HAPPEN a second time at Christ resurrection.
Genesis 1:2 And the earth (symbolic of man) was without form or void; and DARKNESS was on the face of the DEEP (symbolic of man).
Genesis 1:4 And God saw the light (Christ is the light of the world), that is was good: and God DIVIDED the LIGHT from DARKNESS.
Genesis 1:5 And God called the LIGHT DAY, and the DARKNESS NIGHT, and the evening and the morning (of his resurrection) were the FIRST DAY.
Psalms 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy SPIRIT (that spirit RAISED the new creation), THEY ARE CREATED, thou renewest the face of the earth.
1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are children of the LIGHT (Christ in you), and the children of DAY: we are not (children) of the NIGHT, nor of DARKNESS.
Thanks for responding and sorry for such a delay on my response back. I normally can't engage until the weekend due to my work schedule.
Here's my view on this.
We are the light of the world, (The oil filled Lamps.)
In 1 Thessalonians 5:3-5. we see this light mentioned in the believers in connection with the Day of the Lord. (As already established; "Not to be mistaken for the tribulation! but what is interesting is "If" the Holyspirit is taken out of the way/Removed and no longer restraining, then the children of light would become as those who sleep in the night!
He that comforts us, enlighten us and keeps us is no longer doing it and by nature we love Darkness. John 3:19.
Jesus says he will never leave us comfortless. John 14:16-20.
John 15:19. Because of this verse we should see it is not a worldly entity that desires or even capable of restraining evil.
We have three enemies that pushes back against Holiness, Our flesh, the world and the prince of the two, "Satan"
We have one source that empowers, but yet "PERMITS" That's the Holyspirit. We see the involvement and power of the Holyspirit shepherding his Church against these three enemies.
Romans 8:9-15. (The flesh)
1 John 4:4. (Satan)
John 14:16-20. (The World.).
2 Thessalonians 2:1-7. The subject here is the Thessalonians thought the day of the Lord was at hand! Paul says that day shall not come, except there come a apostasy first, and that man of sin be revealed. Paul goes on to say; Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
He is refering to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. He is reminding them.
By the context of 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians, they knew the order of events Paul was telling them. 1st The rapture. 2nd The man of sin revealed. 3rd the day of the Lord. (Wherefore comfort one another with these words.)
The Church is removed and the Holyspirit operates as it did in the Old Testament.
Thank you Jimbob for taking the time to pore through my submission, though I'm sorry that you weren't able to see what I see in the Scriptures. From the many other views we get on this subject, we see that we all can have our different Scriptures that show us how we should perceive these last days.
Even the Revelation 14:14-16 passage you quoted, referring to the harvest being the Church; if this is the Rapture, why then did the Church have to experience the previous judgements of God (in Revelation 6:1-17: Seal Judgements; Revelation 8:1-9:21: Trumpet Judgements). These can't be the ordinary, everyday turmoils that Earth's inhabitants face, but specific Judgements from God and then the sickle is struck for the harvesting (& of course, some are cast into the winepress of God's Wrath).
So brother, I don't want to continually rehash the earlier passages we've written about, as clearly we read these prophetical messages differently. My understanding is that the Great Tribulation of seven years (the last week seen in Daniel's prophecy), which includes God's Wrath in its various phases & intensities, will come after the Church is removed; even as promised to the Philadelphian Church in Revelation 3:10.
The anti-Christ (at least at the beginning of his reign of terror to his opponents), & the beginning of God's Judgements ( Revelation 6,8,9), assure our hearts that the Rapture of the Church can happen suddenly, without any signs to prepare for that day. The call is for our expectant joyous living & readiness now, as even the early Church was to urged to expect ( Philippians 4:5; 1 Thessalonians 5:6; Titus 2:13; James 5:8; Revelation 1:3) - not for our awakening when things begin to get very difficult in the course of the final seven years. The call was always for believers' readiness - we couldn't be in such a state if we know that much more needs to happen before the Lord's Coming/Rapture of the Church - death might overtake most of us before then.
d. the revelation of the anti-Christ is restrained ( 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12). Paul's reason for writing this was because the Church was greatly troubled that the Day of the Lord (Christ) had begun. Paul said that that day wouldn't commence until Jesus came for them & raptured them ("our gathering together unto him": v1). The 'restrainer' is the Holy Spirit in God's people, then when He is removed, God's people are removed, for the Holy Spirit was sent to indwell us & work in & through us & for the Gospel's propagation ( John 16:7,8,13).
e. a comparison between an imminent Rapture & Rapture at the Second Coming:
1. Translation of all believers ( 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18) --- No translation at all ( Revelation 19:6-21).
2. Raptured saints return to Heaven ( 1 Thessalonians 4:17; John 14:1-3) --- Raptured saints return to Earth ( 1 Thessalonians 3:13; Revelation 19:14).
3. Any moment, in readiness, without signs ( 1 Corinthians 1:7; Philippians 4:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:6; Titus 2:13; James 5:7-9; Revelation 3:11, 22:7,12,20) --- many signs given of the Great Tribulation which leads into Jesus' coming (so a readiness cannot be expected, as the seven year's count down begins with the anti-Christ).
A Pre-Tribulation Rapture position keeps the Church ready & watching for her Lord's Coming. Any other position can give her the tendency to apathy & carelessness. The Church is told to be watchful, in spite of ridicule, "where is the promise of his coming" ( 2 Peter 3:4). But Christ's coming is held back until the full number are saved (v9) - and then Jesus will come to take His Church Home.
Yes Jimbob, I would be happy to & will try to be succinct. Though I should mention that the meaning of the Great Tribulation, or Day of the Lord, needs to be clarified first. I understand, as you do, that the time of the outpouring of God's Wrath upon the World can be understood as the Great Tribulation, but I see the final week (7 years) of Daniel's seventy weeks, 490 years: Daniel 9:24-27, as the final seven years - years that will change the World's existence & future forever. And by the way, you believe in a post-trib rapture & I understand that as being before God's Wrath poured out. I view this position to be one of mid-trib for the reason I've shared above, but that's not the point here.
Now my Scriptures for a pre-trib (or, pre-Day of the Lord) rapture:
a. the Church is a mystery ( Ephesians 1:1-13), by which believing Jew & Gentile are united into one Body ( Ephesians 2:11-22). Therefore, the Church's translation is not mentioned in the OT that deals with Christ's Second Coming after the Tribulation, & why the Church is promised deliverance before the time of God's Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
b. the 70th week in Daniel, is the preparation of Israel's restoration & regeneration ( Deuteronomy 4:29-30; Jeremiah 30:4-11; Ezekiel 20:22-44; Ezekiel 22:13-22).
c. the Tribulation (including anti-Christ's reign) is not for the Church, but for those who are in the world ( Revelation 3:10; 8:13; 11:10; 13:8,12,14; 17:2,8). The Church is never seen here & will not participate in Israel's time of trouble.
Introdution: According to 1 Thessalonians 5:9 we are not appointed to wrath. Romans 9:22 seems to indicate that there are indeed "vessels of wrath" doomed for destruction which seems to fulfill what some call "double predestination" or wicked destined for hell. We do know that all those who are NOT written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world will accept the Mark of the Beast and in fact worship him. ( Rev. 13:8; 17:8 and also in chapter 20). Whether we just play out what is already determined; or God knows ahead of time what we will choose is something we can argue about.
Since this Antichrist is indeed the "man of sin" ( 2 Thess. 2:3) and we can also call the son of perdition in John 17:12 as representing Judas Iscariot who also was destined to betray God and be lost according to the prophecy in Psalm 55 along with the same fate for this Beast from these and other passages; we once again see God's hand in this. God is the one according to Thessalonians that sends "strong delusion" ( 2 Thess. 2:11). That is because people loved sin so much that they didn't want to repent; and we see this with the behaviors that occur during the Trumpet judgments in particular.
These facts are sobering; we know that if it weren't for His grace we would never see clearly our sin nature and hence we all would fall for this false Messiah. This world system has nothing to offer; nor does any man who is unregenerate to give lasting peace. Neither sacrifices of animals or man's own sufferings procure any justification or forgiveness of sins; and God is not impressed with any of our accomplishments. Self gratification no doubt will be a large part of the universal appeal; along with self preservation that eventually leads to the acceptance of this infamous mark. Luke 12:12 may have double fulfillment; both for the Apostles facing martyrdom and the end time saints who refuse the mark.
Don't feel like you can't pray whenever you need to. Asking for prayer for real and sincere needs is something God always wants us to do. He is our Heavenly Father and loves us unconditionally. Go to Him always with your needs and reach out to your brothers and sisters in the Lord also because the bible says to pray without ceasing which includes praying with other Christians.
1 Thessalonians 5: 16-18
"16. Rejoice evermore. 17. PRAY WITHOUT CEASING 18. In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you."
God Bless :)
"The meeting in the sky" is what I believe you're referring to as the Rapture, or 'the snatching away' (Latin, 'rapio'; Greek, 'harpazo'), and this is referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, which the Apostle Paul's was teaching to those Churches. Now this event (the Rapture) is a subject that has a whole range of views & beliefs amongst Christians, as we piece together what information we're given in the Bible, figuring the how, when, where, this occurs (or, likely to occur). However, to answer your question, my understanding of the Scriptures is that the Rapture ('the lifting up of the living & dead in Christ & meeting Jesus in the sky') is the next great event in God's 'calendar', where His saved, holy ones are removed from the Earth before His Wrath is poured upon the Earth of unbelievers (otherwise called, the Great Tribulation of God's Wrath (see Matthew chapter 24)). See also 1 Thessalonians 1:10 & 1 Thessalonians 5:8-10.
However one views this 'snatching away' & the Day of God's Wrath upon the Earth, the message to those IN CHRIST is clear: BE READY, Live lives pleasing to the Lord, that we may "not be ashamed before Him at His Coming" ( 1 John 2:28,29). GBU.
Jeremiah 5:30-31 declares: "A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land; The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?"
1 Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."
I know that I am a sinner, so what can I do to be saved? The answer is, there is nothing that I, being DEAD in trespasses and sins, can do to affect my salvation!
Ephesians 2:1 "And you hath he quickened [made alive], who were DEAD in trespasses and sins;"
John 6:29 "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."
Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST..."
Romans 9:15-16 "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
So what about the churches that say, we will show you how to become saved, or, you must be baptized in water and partake of the Lord's supper? Virtually every church promotes a do-it-yourself salvation, which is not that of the Bible! The baptism that is required is the washing away of our sins, which only God can perform. When we meditate on the word of God with a view to being obedient to it, we are feeding on the flesh and drinking the blood of the Lord Jesus.
John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
Salvation is 100% the work of God. If we are trusting in any work that we do for Salvation, we are trusting in a FALSE GOSPEL that cannot save.
Visit ZionInTravail on youtube and the web to lean more about the True Gospel of Salvation and the Day in which we are living.
Again, dealing with your recent comments to me, now in one post, Shabbat Keeper. Firstly, Adam has written very well to Jema, so I won't bring up the matter of the definition of "eternal/eternity", which should alone convince us that physical death is not the end for anyone (believer or unbeliever).
If I'm correct from your first post to me, "what an icky thought it is, to stop existing", you believe in the total annihilation of the body at death (for the unbeliever). So, when the Bible speaks of man, his existence & his death, we are first reminded that man is a tripartite being (i.e. one whose composition is of body, soul & spirit: 1 Thessalonians 5:23). When the body dies, it decomposes back to the Earth, but those parts of man that cannot be killed ( Matthew 10:28) can never be destroyed. Unlike animals, man's spirit, given by God, returns to Him ( Ecclesiastes 3:21), whereas animals cease to exist - forever. Therefore, if man, made by God to reflect His Image & traits, is accountable to God, will never cease to exist (his spirit & soul cannot be destroyed, whether by death, fire, or whatever), & he will stand in judgement before God. For this reason, the Gospel is so vital for all to hear, to alert all people that death is not final - there remains an accountability & their final judgement will be based on what they have done with Jesus Who came for them.
You wrote, "Hell fire is the same thing as destruction" & you gave the example of a house on fire. A house is physical/material, a spirit is not - it can never be destroyed. The real Shabbat Keeper or myself are found in our spirits/souls - the body is simply the house in which we need to live in. So yes, this house is corrupt & temporal, but we who have Christ's Spirit in us, look to be clothed (endowed) with that "house which is from heaven" ( 2 Corinthians 5:1-6). Likewise, hell (not the grave), is the dwelling place of those who have spurned God's Love - spirits they are & in torment.
Part 2.
Here's is your response to the original post.
"Hello brother Spencer, Good evening! Thinking of doctrine, the Church practice of
giving and taking reproof by love maybe is part of what you are thinking? Church discipline and restoration?
God bless the walk.
Brother Carleton, That I absolutely agree with! However, that is not in the context of this message.
This message is more in line with Jude 1:3-4 with the focus on what is mentioned in verse 4 "For there are certain men crept in unawares,"
This has the thought of some has come into the fold sort of like through a back door.
Jude 1:10-15. He describes them. They are not Brothern. They are not Sheep.
As for "A Holy kiss.
Does the bible say greet "them" with a Holy kiss? No, I don't think so.
Romans 10:8-10 says the words is ni thy mouth.
These words is what we can confess to others if asked by what means are you saved.
However, what about the guy whom from his heart "by his mouth" speaks against truth?
We don't judge his present spiritual condition; he's done it ALREADY by refusing to believe and enter in the straight and narrow gate. See Matthew 7:13-15. and John 3:18.
What do these verses concerning a Holy kiss have in common? This Holy kiss is for the Brothern.
1 Corinthians 16:20.
2 Corinthians 13:11-12.
1 Thessalonians 5:26.
Romans 16:16.
The Holy kiss wasn't only meant to express love for the Brothern.
The Holy kiss is meant to express acceptance especially at a time when Gentiles was coming into the fold.
It certainly wasn't for non-believers.
Look at 2 John1:10. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed.
Also see Romans 16:17-18.
Does open rebuke harm a brother?
Open rebuke is better than secret love.
Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. Proverbs 27:5-6.
See Part 3
in all things ( we ought to give thanks ): for this is the will of god in christ concerning you.
( 1 thessalonians 5:18 )
much love to you and yours...family is great!
1 Thessalonians 5:2
"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."
1 Thessalonians 4:16
"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
1 Thessalonians 4:17
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (7 years in Heaven and in Revelation 19:11-21 Christ returns with His Saints and the Angels)
Revelation 3:10
"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
Matthew 5:12
"Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in Heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Grace and Salvation and the Holy Spirit will remain. The Body of Christ is he who hinders, God said the Holy Spirit will abide with thee forever. Zech 14:16-21 speaks of those that are left, without the mark or and who did not worship the image will serve year to year.
Isaiah 19:23-25
23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-111
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
The great tribulation ( Matthew 24:21)
The Day of the Lord ( Isaiah 2:12; 13:6-9; Joel 1:15; 2:1-31; 3:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2)
Trouble or tribulation ( Deuteronomy 4:30)
The time of Jacob's troubles ( Jeremiah 30:7)
Toward the end of Daniel's life, he has a vision described in Daniel 12.
"At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, every one who is found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars forever and ever."- Daniel 12:1-3
From this passage, we know that
Unprecedented, troubling times are on the way.
There will be some who will awake to "everlasting life."
There will be some who will awake to "shame and everlasting contempt."
Those who are wise will shine.
A further study of this passage and the 7-year tribulation reveals more about the troubling times and who will awake to everlasting life and who will awake to everlasting contempt.
Everlasting life is given by those who trust in Jesus for their salvation.
Everlasting contempt is given to those who do not trust Jesus.
1Pet 4:1
we must be still in our mortal flesh, to suffer in the flesh, & to cease from sin
its the working of Grace / Cross in denying ungodliness & worldly lust that the carnal minded, which is in enmity against God that must be crucify & the learning of righteousness is the suffering described here,
As we continue in well doing, ever increasing in the measure of His Spirit
we come to Psalms 40:8
I spoke to Chris once about this, but it's worth saying it again, my present measure is in the state of man before he fell, yet still capable of falling, & I have ! I found that in humility, 'Truth in the inward parts" & confessing the least motions of His convictions within my conscience is the key to growing in Grace. I learn to love it when He nails me, its His judgment of lovingkindness drawing me closer to Him, instilling in me the fear of the Lord & by continuing in this state of brokeness I receive strenght to overcome all the wiles of the devil, thus far 1 Thessalonians 5:24
What God requires is that we walk according to the Truth that we know, as we abide in it, it cleanses us through the continuing exercising of the Grace received, once we mature in that present measure, God gives the increase & the process of sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience & Sprinkling of the Blood/Life of Jesus within us increases, until that final day of Luke 3:16,17 refer to Rom 6:3-5 2Pet 1:19 "not I, but Christ
Folks, awake to Righteousness & Christ will give you Life
with all that be open on the subject, those who willful choose not to believe, will have no excuse when they stand before a Holy Holy Holy God to give an account of the Light that's has been reveal to them, folks please consider.
Another thought, in light of the whole of Scriptures, only the devil influnence upon mankind would plead to remain in unbelief & sin, this doctrine come only from Rev 17:5
Please refer to my respond to Chris re Heb 4:12 and 1 Thessalonians 5:23.
On your statements regarding the Wrath of God and the nature of Christ's Atonement, I must disagree.
I would encourage you to carefully read Isaiah 53, the entire chapter.
And also consider these verses:
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Colossians 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
So if God has "saved" us, it means that Christ, eternal God Himself, had taken upon Himself every dirty rotten sin that we have committed or ever will commit, and has paid the full penalty for those sins, the Wrath of God, Eternal Death, which we rightly deserve, required by the Law of God, as our substitute. And He has freed us from Bondage to Sin and Satan, and has raised us from Spiritual Death and given us Eternal Life. And will at the Last Day, complete our Salvation by giving us our Resurrected Spiritual Body ( 1 Corinthians 15) in which we will live and reign with Christ as joint inheritors with Christ of the New Heavens and New Earth for ever more.
Praise God for so great Salvation!
No apologies necessary. Thanks to you and Jimbob for the 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 12:4 verses.
One thing I know for a certainty is that God did not choose words or phrases idly as He has wrote the Bible. We must compare scripture with scripture using the principles that God lays down for us in the Bible if we hope to come to truth. We must always be willing to examine any understanding we may have in the light of any verse or passage in the Bible that deals with the question at hand.
God did not write the Bible in a way that it is always easy to come to truth. It is often very difficult. And if we begin to isolate verses and passages from the rest of the Bible or approach a question based on the wisdom of men (let God be True, but every man a liar, Rom 3:4) we can very quickly and easily be led down a wrong path.
The Bible is its own dictionary and its own interpreter. And we must always be mindful that it is God Himself who must open our understanding and give us ears to hear as we seek truth from His Holy Word, the Bible. And that He does this on His own timetable and for His own purposes.
I would need to further study the relationship between Soul and Spirit as God uses these terms throughout the Bible before arriving at a distinction between the two.
At this point, I don't see anything in these two verses that would change my understanding of 1) the Spiritual condition of Mankind apart from God's mercy in Salvation, nor 2) what happens to a True Believer when they become Born Again, nor 3) what happens to a True Believer when their Body dies Physically, nor 4) what happens to a True Believer at the Resurrection of the Last Day.
I have stated what I believe God has declared regarding these teachings in many of my comments, along with some of the scriptural references dealing with these questions. All of which are ultimately speaking to aspects of Salvation itself and how God deals with those whom He saves.
Only when a person has been born again by God's Spirit ( John 3:3), can that person be in a new revived position of receiving & giving communication to our Heavenly Father. God sends His Spirit to be with us & in us ( John 14:17), but His Spirit doesn't replace our spirit, nor does He overrule us to the extent that we cease to think & behave as ordinary people. So, when He ministers to us (whether in decision-making, personal conduct, in worship, in understanding the Word, etc.), it becomes our choice as to whether we allow His gentle & precise ministry to influence us or not. Sadly, we often allow carnal thoughts or pre-conceived ideas or beliefs to take precedent over His, much to our detriment. But when we are truly walking (& worshiping in the Spirit) - Galatians 5:16,25 - then we will truly know His Peace, that which 'surpasses all our understanding & inclinations' ( Philippians 4:7), joyfully allowing Him to lead us, especially in worship & in faith, for all we experience.
Your questions 'to which spirit'? Our spirit is never laid aside in the functioning of man - our faculties are always in force. It is how much we allow the Holy Spirit to take control in our lives, our worship, even 'wisdom in allowing others into our lives' ( Romans 8:1-28).
I also agree and hold to the outline Brother Chris gave on the 70 weeks but I term "the great tribulation" as the 2nd half of the 70th week as you do. "3 and a half years."
I believe in Mathew 24:15-16 and Mark 13:14 Jesus describes the abomination of desolation as the beginning of the Great tribulation. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.
I believe Daniel 8:23-25 describes the rise and first half of the 70th week.
"And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, AND BY PEACE SHALL DESTROY MANY: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."
Also we see this false world peace mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 5:3.
We see today an urge to leave the narrow gate and merge other religious practices and religions into the Church.
The Nation of Islam uses the Bible and false so called Christian preachers to bridge the gap of their version of Islam and Christianity today.
The Antichrist is coming to set himself up above ALL THAT IS CALLED GOD.
2 Thessalonians 2:4.
"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
God bless.
And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. Luke 15:20-24
Rejoice evermore. Pray without ceasing. In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. 1 Thessalonians 5:16
O give thanks unto the Lord; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. Psalm 136:1,2
These verses would apply:
1 Corinthians 15:52
Revelation 3:10
1 Thessalonians 5:9
Luke 12:40
Hope this helps!
You gave the example of a postmaster opening & reading your letter to others. That normally would be a valid point because no one expects, or is lawful, to open up private mail & share the contents with others. The only thing with your example is that the letter in question is still current, the sender is alive & the recipients would also be hurt by knowing that others were privy to the contents. What if your personal letter was sent, intending that other believers in that city or country would gain benefit from it (e.g. through the media), but especially to the ones addressed? Or, if your letter was left in someone's drawer, was found 100 years after you died & indeed, the recipients also died, would it really matter to you or anyone else that your letter was found & read?
I think we have many examples of personal letters that exist today written by people of old that have been archived or published in newspapers/books. I really don't see a problem in this scenario, and I'm quite sure that Paul & the others wouldn't have minded that the contents of their letters receive a wider readership (see 1 Thessalonians 5:27 (could have included others that the Thessalonian Church had contact with) & Colossians 4:15,16). Even the Letter by John given by the Jesus Christ, was intended to be 'revealed unto his servants (all of us) things which must shortly come to pass...' ( Revelation 1:1). So I do believe that what we have in the Bible today, has been appointed by God & intended for the widest distribution so that all people might come to know the LORD & His Christ, made conscious of their sin, & run into the Arms of a Loving Savior. These letters have helped us greatly, causing us to understand & act upon this Truth.
That there has to first be a departure from the faith (an apostasy); I understand this to be the general deterioration within the Church (as we even see now with the preaching of error & the Church, which ought to be seen as the Light & Body of Christ, has become in many places, a haven for Satan to have his way & lead many devout earnest people happily into hell's pit). And after this will be the revelation of the anti-Christ.
Is it at this point (mid-trib) that you believe the world, including the Church will go into the Great Tribulation & come under the anti-Christ? Or, could it be that this is at the very beginning of the Day of Christ, where the Great Tribulation is about to begin but first there will be the "falling away & the revelation of the man of sin"? If, as I believe, the Gt. Tribulation is the tribulation from God (His Wrath & not man's daily tribulations), then I understand Paul stating to the believers there, 'the rapture will happen first at the introduction of the man of sin & then God's Wrath - so don't be misled that that day has already started.'
Before the Wrath (the Great Tribulation) must come the rapture - the anti-Christ is revealed because God has allowed it by removing His Restrainer - and if His Wrath is to be poured out on unbelievers, where is His Church, the one which was not appointed to receive His Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:9)?
As stated previously; I wish to look to the Word to explain itself. I also wish to maintain the hope of 1 Thessalonians 5:11 in light of our appearing before the King of Kings. I take the minority opinion that perhaps not all will be Raptured who believe as it appears to be a reward issue and because of certain language related to those in white garments washed in the blood; which appears to indicate those who previously had spotted or wrinkled garments and were not part of those in Ephesians 1:4.
I don't think it prudent to delve too deeply here into that concept; what I will say is that verses like Luke 21:36 and Revelation 3:10 at the very least should cause us to examine ourselves to see if we are saved and the Spirit is communing with us.
We should understand that not all who call themselves Christians truly are saved; and that parables like that of the 10 virgins whether it is an analogy of the church or of unbelieving Israel; whether it speaks of readiness for the Rapture or the Second Coming it certainly is a warning for us all to be ready. We can look to Revelation the same way; it is certainly applicable to those already under persecution and distress even with some unique characteristics to Tribulation events in history.
I am also as I probably made clear in earlier posts pretty dogmatic on taking a literal approach to scripture; and in Revelation taking things as indicated at least in chronological order or at least sequentially. I also emphasize the concept of Predestination in Revelation; as well as showing how great revival and restoration of the nation of Israel are some reasons for this final conflagration and time of terrible judgments. We should not be glib but sober minded when we consider the magnitude of these events. I contend that the church age is still in effect in it's final stages; the end of the age is near.
part 1
That's a good point you make,
However, Here's a few issues with that view,
1) The day of the Lord is mentioned 31 times in the bible, 26 times in the Old Testament and 5 in the New Testament.
To my knowledge nowhere in scripture it mentions any removal of the saints.
Here's a few.
Isaiah 2:12; 13:6, 9; Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3; Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31; 3:14; Amos 5:18,20; Obadiah 15; Zephaniah 1:7,14; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi 4:5) and several times in the New Testament ( Acts 2:20; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 2 Corinthians 1:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:2; 2 Peter 3:10). It is also alluded to in other passages ( Revelation 6:15-17; 16:14).
In 2 Peter 3:3-18 we are told the Lord is longsuffering to us-ward, and holding back his wrath not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Notice something in verses 11 and 12.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? ITS A QUESTION!!
The answer is NO!
Here's what were looking for;
Verses 13-16.
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
See part 2 and the second issue I have with that view.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 it says, Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. And in Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. So by fallowing the thread of the Bible we can clearly see that the 144,000 are only out of the 12 tribes of Israel, they are washed in the blood of the Lamb and sealed by God. The rest of the world is the multitude that no man can number and is also washed in the blood of Christ Jesus.
I hope this answers your question.
I always try to remember these verses; 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Were you born in 1939, if so your just a little older than myself? I'm a 40's child.
Yes, darkness was over the land from 6th to the 9th hour.
This literally was reality; and is still reality, that darkness has manifest itself even till NOW.
Christ is the LIFE of ALL MEN; though most are in darkness, they don't believe the HOUSE (our body) was made desolate by the death of Christ.
All mankind was made desolate: by his death; dwelling in darkness, and he AROSE, as the DAY STAR, and shined LIGHT (his WORD) into DARKNESS, and the darkness comprehended it NOT.
Creation HAPPEN a second time at Christ resurrection.
Genesis 1:2 And the earth (symbolic of man) was without form or void; and DARKNESS was on the face of the DEEP (symbolic of man).
Genesis 1:4 And God saw the light (Christ is the light of the world), that is was good: and God DIVIDED the LIGHT from DARKNESS.
Genesis 1:5 And God called the LIGHT DAY, and the DARKNESS NIGHT, and the evening and the morning (of his resurrection) were the FIRST DAY.
Psalms 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy SPIRIT (that spirit RAISED the new creation), THEY ARE CREATED, thou renewest the face of the earth.
1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are children of the LIGHT (Christ in you), and the children of DAY: we are not (children) of the NIGHT, nor of DARKNESS.
God Bless YOU!
Thanks for responding and sorry for such a delay on my response back. I normally can't engage until the weekend due to my work schedule.
Here's my view on this.
We are the light of the world, (The oil filled Lamps.)
In 1 Thessalonians 5:3-5. we see this light mentioned in the believers in connection with the Day of the Lord. (As already established; "Not to be mistaken for the tribulation! but what is interesting is "If" the Holyspirit is taken out of the way/Removed and no longer restraining, then the children of light would become as those who sleep in the night!
He that comforts us, enlighten us and keeps us is no longer doing it and by nature we love Darkness. John 3:19.
Jesus says he will never leave us comfortless. John 14:16-20.
John 15:19. Because of this verse we should see it is not a worldly entity that desires or even capable of restraining evil.
We have three enemies that pushes back against Holiness, Our flesh, the world and the prince of the two, "Satan"
We have one source that empowers, but yet "PERMITS" That's the Holyspirit. We see the involvement and power of the Holyspirit shepherding his Church against these three enemies.
Romans 8:9-15. (The flesh)
1 John 4:4. (Satan)
John 14:16-20. (The World.).
2 Thessalonians 2:1-7. The subject here is the Thessalonians thought the day of the Lord was at hand! Paul says that day shall not come, except there come a apostasy first, and that man of sin be revealed. Paul goes on to say; Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
He is refering to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. He is reminding them.
By the context of 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians, they knew the order of events Paul was telling them. 1st The rapture. 2nd The man of sin revealed. 3rd the day of the Lord. (Wherefore comfort one another with these words.)
The Church is removed and the Holyspirit operates as it did in the Old Testament.
2 Thessalonians 2:4 parallels with Matthew 24:15.
GB.
Even the Revelation 14:14-16 passage you quoted, referring to the harvest being the Church; if this is the Rapture, why then did the Church have to experience the previous judgements of God (in Revelation 6:1-17: Seal Judgements; Revelation 8:1-9:21: Trumpet Judgements). These can't be the ordinary, everyday turmoils that Earth's inhabitants face, but specific Judgements from God and then the sickle is struck for the harvesting (& of course, some are cast into the winepress of God's Wrath).
So brother, I don't want to continually rehash the earlier passages we've written about, as clearly we read these prophetical messages differently. My understanding is that the Great Tribulation of seven years (the last week seen in Daniel's prophecy), which includes God's Wrath in its various phases & intensities, will come after the Church is removed; even as promised to the Philadelphian Church in Revelation 3:10.
The anti-Christ (at least at the beginning of his reign of terror to his opponents), & the beginning of God's Judgements ( Revelation 6,8,9), assure our hearts that the Rapture of the Church can happen suddenly, without any signs to prepare for that day. The call is for our expectant joyous living & readiness now, as even the early Church was to urged to expect ( Philippians 4:5; 1 Thessalonians 5:6; Titus 2:13; James 5:8; Revelation 1:3) - not for our awakening when things begin to get very difficult in the course of the final seven years. The call was always for believers' readiness - we couldn't be in such a state if we know that much more needs to happen before the Lord's Coming/Rapture of the Church - death might overtake most of us before then.
d. the revelation of the anti-Christ is restrained ( 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12). Paul's reason for writing this was because the Church was greatly troubled that the Day of the Lord (Christ) had begun. Paul said that that day wouldn't commence until Jesus came for them & raptured them ("our gathering together unto him": v1). The 'restrainer' is the Holy Spirit in God's people, then when He is removed, God's people are removed, for the Holy Spirit was sent to indwell us & work in & through us & for the Gospel's propagation ( John 16:7,8,13).
e. a comparison between an imminent Rapture & Rapture at the Second Coming:
1. Translation of all believers ( 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18) --- No translation at all ( Revelation 19:6-21).
2. Raptured saints return to Heaven ( 1 Thessalonians 4:17; John 14:1-3) --- Raptured saints return to Earth ( 1 Thessalonians 3:13; Revelation 19:14).
3. Any moment, in readiness, without signs ( 1 Corinthians 1:7; Philippians 4:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:6; Titus 2:13; James 5:7-9; Revelation 3:11, 22:7,12,20) --- many signs given of the Great Tribulation which leads into Jesus' coming (so a readiness cannot be expected, as the seven year's count down begins with the anti-Christ).
A Pre-Tribulation Rapture position keeps the Church ready & watching for her Lord's Coming. Any other position can give her the tendency to apathy & carelessness. The Church is told to be watchful, in spite of ridicule, "where is the promise of his coming" ( 2 Peter 3:4). But Christ's coming is held back until the full number are saved (v9) - and then Jesus will come to take His Church Home.
Yes Jimbob, I would be happy to & will try to be succinct. Though I should mention that the meaning of the Great Tribulation, or Day of the Lord, needs to be clarified first. I understand, as you do, that the time of the outpouring of God's Wrath upon the World can be understood as the Great Tribulation, but I see the final week (7 years) of Daniel's seventy weeks, 490 years: Daniel 9:24-27, as the final seven years - years that will change the World's existence & future forever. And by the way, you believe in a post-trib rapture & I understand that as being before God's Wrath poured out. I view this position to be one of mid-trib for the reason I've shared above, but that's not the point here.
Now my Scriptures for a pre-trib (or, pre-Day of the Lord) rapture:
a. the Church is a mystery ( Ephesians 1:1-13), by which believing Jew & Gentile are united into one Body ( Ephesians 2:11-22). Therefore, the Church's translation is not mentioned in the OT that deals with Christ's Second Coming after the Tribulation, & why the Church is promised deliverance before the time of God's Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
b. the 70th week in Daniel, is the preparation of Israel's restoration & regeneration ( Deuteronomy 4:29-30; Jeremiah 30:4-11; Ezekiel 20:22-44; Ezekiel 22:13-22).
c. the Tribulation (including anti-Christ's reign) is not for the Church, but for those who are in the world ( Revelation 3:10; 8:13; 11:10; 13:8,12,14; 17:2,8). The Church is never seen here & will not participate in Israel's time of trouble.